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Subject Topic: The Bride and the Wheat: Why I Unpacked My Rapture Bag - David Ryser Post Reply Post New Topic
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Posted: 01/04/2009 at 5:23pm | IP Logged Quote Moderator

The Bride and the Wheat:

Why I Unpacked My Rapture Bag

 

By David Ryser

 

The holidays are past, and I am catching up on my reading.  I am especially interested in Christian postings concerning the passing of the old year and expectations for the coming year.  The second coming of Christ is a popular theme, both looking back and looking forward, and one person sums up the feelings of many by saying, “I was disappointed that He did not come….”  Reading this statement, I am reminded about why I recently unpacked my rapture bag.

 

What is a rapture bag, you ask?  A rapture bag is a small to medium sized tote bag loaded with all of the things one may need to make the trip into the heavenlies more comfortable.  Because many of us are so far from God, the trip might be prolonged, and there is no sense in having it being any more uncomfortable than it needs to be.  In my case, the bag contained a couple of power bars, a liter sized bottle of water, a polar fleece blanket in case I became cold along the way (there is no real defense against becoming hot--extreme heat is a bad sign the trip has gone awry), a good Christian magazine (which was very difficult to find--the good part, anyway), and a good Christian book (equally difficult to find, and for the same reason).

 

I unpacked my rapture bag because I looked away from the problems in the Middle East, the global economy, worldwide weather patterns, earthquake frequency charts, and the latest candidate for the office of Antichrist--and I looked instead at the Bible--for clues concerning the return of Jesus.  Two words in Scripture repeated themselves in connection with the Lord’s return: Bride and Harvest (specifically Wheat in Matthew 13: 24-30, 36-43).  As I considered these many scriptures, I came to the conclusion that the return of Christ is not imminent; or, at least, not as soon as we would like to think (and my power bars and bottled water have expiration dates on them).  Neither the bride nor the harvest is ready.

 

The scriptures concerning the Bride being prepared for Jesus seem to focus on the areas of expectancy (the parable of the ten virgins, for example) and beauty (too many examples to cite).  Considering the former--expectancy--I realized that our expectancy is not that of a loving bride who is lovesick until her bridegroom’s appearance.  We are eager for our Bridegroom’s return when things are bad and we want to be rescued (and begin to enjoy the blessings of heaven).  Considering the latter--beauty--it occurred to me that kings marry only beautiful brides.  There is no politically correct way to put this: Kings do not marry ugly.  Why?  Because they don’t have to.  I look at the state of the Church and, even though I am not a king, I would not marry this woman--I would not even date her.  The Bride is not ready for the Bridegroom.  The Bible says that Jesus is coming back for a Bride without spot, not a Bride that could be named Spot.

 

As for the harvest/wheat, I remain fascinated by the parable of the wheat and the tares, in Matthew 13, cited above.  We are not even left guessing about the interpretation of the parable, as Jesus interprets it for us.  What stands out most to me in this parable is the ripeness of the harvest which is the signal that the time of reaping has come.  When wheat ripens, the kernels of wheat that are the fruit of the harvest look (and are) exactly like the original seed that was planted.  That seed would be Jesus.  Do we look--act, speak, minister--like Jesus?  Are we dead to self while being filled with the life of the original seed that was planted?  Let’s be honest, the harvest is not ready--many times we can’t even tell the wheat from the tares much less argue the wheat is ripe.

 

It’s easy to criticize the sorry state of the Church until we realize the Church is nothing more than the aggregate of its members; in other words, I am the Church (and so are you).  When I stopped looking at the things I mentioned earlier to signal the return of Jesus (Israel, floods, earthquakes, famines, wars, etc.), I began to look somewhere else--into my own heart.  Am I prepared as a Bride for my Bridegroom?  Do I love Him with all of my heart and yearn for Him with all of my being?  Am I producing a harvest--a harvest of the life of Jesus that was planted in me--in my life?  Am I accurately representing God in the world through my speech and actions?  Am I doing the things Jesus did and saying the things Jesus said?  Does my touch impart life or death to others?

 

Is Jesus returning in this New Year?  I don’t know; I suspect not, but to find out, all I have to do is to look at the Bride/Wheat.  And to do that, I need only to look in the nearest mirror.

 

 

Responses to this article are welcomed.  You may contact the author at drdave1545@yahoo.com

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mariateresatee
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Posted: 01/05/2009 at 8:05am | IP Logged Quote mariateresatee

"The Bible says that Jesus is coming back for a Bride without spot, not a Bride that could be named Spot."



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Posted: 01/06/2009 at 7:28pm | IP Logged Quote Tim Speer

After some consideration I am encouraged by the fact that in the end the mature plant eventually produces a harvest that is exactly like the seed. Indeed the seed fell to the gound and died and the thing that sprung up in no way looked like the seed. Plants don't look like seeds and the church over the course of the centuries hasn't looked like Jesus but it is encouraging to know he knew that it wouldn't and also knew it would, in the fullness of time produce a harvest of those exactly like him.

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Posted: 01/06/2009 at 8:52pm | IP Logged Quote R Broeker

One thing I have 'considered' timewise is that the 6000 year mark for the rapture may calculated on the Hebrew calendar and not the calendar we use today. The year 6000 on the Hebrew calendar would be 2240 on our calendar. Personally, a present day view centered around Israel points to a soon 2nd coming--not 231 years from now.
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Posted: 01/07/2009 at 4:25am | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

Israel?  Israel?

Edited by David Ryser on 01/08/2009 at 12:16pm


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Posted: 01/07/2009 at 5:19pm | IP Logged Quote Tim Speer

After even further reflection it seems that the parts of the plant that came before should by nature support and give nourishment to those that come after and those in turn should do the same for those that come after them. The Havest will come when the time is full. The plant will change; it will head out and husks will form to protect the newly forming kernals. Although this structure will look nothing like what has come before it will be every bit a part of the whole as anything that has come before. The funny thing is that when the plant begins to head out it is almost impossible to distinguish between it and just another new leaf for a time. The point is we are always thinking the plant is heading out.

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Posted: 01/08/2009 at 11:14am | IP Logged Quote GaryFPatton

How could one comment further on a helpful article than to say: "Well done, David!"

Your analogy of the ripe grain looking like original seed is a neat one! Thanks!

Your concluding questions also are thought-provoking and challenging. I'm praying about them and listening intently. 

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Posted: 01/16/2009 at 3:27pm | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

I find it disturbing that u discern the LORDs body as ugly.. I am very sure the LORD does not look upon her that way. The problem i see is in several areas, i think there is a misunderstanding about How the LORD looks upon individuals, Who is the bride,  who we are to place labels on that which The LORD has sanctified. How many people are actually saved is another misconception that causes confusion and straying from true Biblical spirit of humility..

 

The seed is incorruptible.. Amen..

People mocking about the coming, saying where is his coming where is that in the bible?

Another misunderstanding is a failure to understand the words of Jesus in the new testament regarding Israel as the fig tree, and a generation that would see messiah..

A question for the author? Do u long for His appearing? How does this article spur me onto a greater passion for His return?



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Posted: 01/16/2009 at 4:49pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

The Bride shows her passion for the Bridegroom by preparing/beautifying herself for Him.  The American Church, taken as a whole, does not display this characteristic.  She merchandises the anointing she does have, though it is precious little, and finds ways to make money by selling the name of Jesus.  Context for this opinion can be supplied by reading the article, Lover or Prostitute?:  The Question that Changed My Life found on this Forums page.

Is Jesus coming back?  Yes, Jesus is coming back, and I am lovesick for Him until He does.  But make no mistake, He is not coming back for a whore.


Edited by David Ryser on 01/16/2009 at 5:34pm


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Posted: 01/17/2009 at 5:06am | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

I dont know where or what this seeming prejudice against the "american church" stems from perhaps people watch to much tv and base thier belief of the bride on that? My understanding is that the church is a man made concept, the remnant bride is the one which is referred to as spotless..

Your reply states i am lovesick for Him, the word says if we cant love the "american church" whom we have seen how can we love the LORD of the body. The LORD is one with His body..

There is no doubt brother that some who were once perhaps washed , sanctified have walked in a spirit of whoredoms. My concern with the way u used the term was that u are maligning The LORDS bride. Are u positive you arent calling common that which the LORD has cleansed?



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Posted: 01/17/2009 at 2:50pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

I assume you did not read the article I recommended.  What more can I say  until you do?  Intelligent dialogue is based upon shared information.

I do, however, agree with your point that the Church is not the same thing as the Bride (although Jesus instituted the Church, not man, as He told Peter He would). They should be the same.   I still believe the Bride needs maturing (otherwise she would making a measurably greater difference in the world by announcing and demonstrating the Kingdom of God).  Is God finished perfecting any of us?

I have no issue with the Bride other than that she needs some work.

When God calls His people whores (numerous times in the OT), is He calling unclean that which He has cleansed?  Does He not love them anymore?

PS--I'm becoming concerned that our conversation, while somewhat interesting to me, probably isn't so fascinating to others.  Rather than use this forum as a chat room, how about you put your thoughts into an e-mail and send it to the e-mail address posted at the bottom of the article?  We can continue our dialogue via e-mail.


Edited by David Ryser on 01/17/2009 at 3:47pm


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Posted: 01/17/2009 at 5:30pm | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

I didnt find the article though i did look, i am concerned about the statement you make about intelligent information . You come across rather condescending . I would welcome any dialogue i have with anyone to be based on ONE thing Gods holy word.. I questioned the generalizations used in your writings, IM totally convinced OUR FAther who art in heaven is tired of this calling something righteous, an unclean thing,, My email is on my posts, if you would care to discuss anything with me at any time.. Its a pity that some find justification to write the things they do.. Jeremiah for example wrote some very harsh words of judgement agianst a idolatrous people, yet in those words one can see the true heart of God of a Fathers love for his people, interstingly He says he is married to the backslider,



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Posted: 01/17/2009 at 5:54pm | IP Logged Quote GaryFPatton

richard gilman wrote:

I dont know where or what this seeming prejudice against the "american church" stems from perhaps people watch to much tv and base thier belief of the bride on that? My understanding is that the church is a man made concept, the remnant bride is the one which is referred to as spotless..

Your reply states i am lovesick for Him, the word says if we cant love the "american church" whom we have seen how can we love the LORD of the body. The LORD is one with His body..

There is no doubt brother that some who were once perhaps washed , sanctified have walked in a spirit of whoredoms. My concern with the way u used the term was that u are maligning The LORDS bride. Are u positive you arent calling common that which the LORD has cleansed?



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Posted: 01/17/2009 at 5:56pm | IP Logged Quote GaryFPatton

Richard, you say:
"the word says if we cant love the "american church" whom we have seen how can we love the LORD of the body."

I'm intrigued regarding what "word" you're talking about here?

Blessings!



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Posted: 01/18/2009 at 4:09pm | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

This portion of the word.. I substituted the american church trying to make it pratical...



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Posted: 01/18/2009 at 11:30pm | IP Logged Quote Kathy Bippus

I think I get what both David and Richard, you all are saying.

David makes a plain, clear statement here "Is Jesus returning in this New Year?  I don’t know; I suspect not, but to find out, all I have to do is to look at the Bride/Wheat.  And to do that, I need only to look in the nearest mirror."

i've shared before, i'm not looking for a return, but looking for His appearing in and through His own( which must begin individually, as David shared, looking in the mirror).

" and every man that has this hope( expectation) within him, purifies himself." just one example of esther, in her preparation time, purification, before going before the king. However, we have this hope within us, Christ in you, the hope( full expectation) of glory. So there is a looking to Him, a looking into Him, a searching Him, that we begin to be transformed..from glory to glory.

i remember years ago, my heart was grieved with `prophetic' words going forth that seemed to me to be bashing His `church.'  i had a vision in the night and i'll never forget this..I was observing this..i saw a bride and groom standing at the altar. As the groom begins to lift the veil, my eyes are zoomed in, upclose and i see..the brides face. it is the face of Jesus, dark hair, olive skin and His face was bleeding, broken and bruised.

So, in this i hear what Richard is saying as well. you know, if we are constantly telling people what they are not, they become beat down, broken and bruised. but when we begin to draw out of them what has been deposited within, they begin to flourish..being lifted up and out.

blessings,

 



Edited by Kathy Bippus on 01/18/2009 at 11:31pm


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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 5:11am | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

Kathy makes some interesting points, so please allow me to clarify the message of my little article.  The last paragraph of the article encourages the Bride of Christ to prepare for her Bridegroom.  She is not evil, merely unprepared.  Like Richard, I do not necessarily equate the Bride with the visible Church.  He quotes 1 John 4:20 which encourages us to love other believers; in fact, it calls us liars if we hate our brothers in Christ and yet claim to love God.  It is not , however, commanding or even recommending that we love and support a corrupt, failed, wicked, and perhaps even evil church system/business.

One of Jesus' sharpest criticisms of the Pharisees is that they had abandoned the love of God and man commanded in the scriptures (the OT scriptures, I remind you) in favor of love for a religious system--a system that was contrary to the heart of God.  Did Jesus not love the Pharisees when He criticized them and their religion?  Of course He loved them; that's why He warned them.

My warning for the Bride (and the Church) is to prepare for the coming of Jesus--whenever it might be.  Take a lesson from the parable of the ten virgins--all ten were virgins, but only five were prepared.

Wake up, Bride (and those in the Church who have ears to hear)!


Edited by David Ryser on 01/19/2009 at 5:46am


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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 2:08pm | IP Logged Quote Kathy Bippus

yes David, good stuff :))

 The parable of the ten virgins is speaking of the Kingdom of God not the sweet by and by or pie in the sky someday thing( which some have taken it to mean). Hence, seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. Those who do not suffer loss.

 In His addressing the Pharissee's  for their pride in their traditions and hypocricy, He was shooting straight to the heart, core of their being. All that hindered others from entering His Kingdom and they recognized not that the scriptures that they professed to know and diligently searched, was standing right their in their midst( the fulfillment of Christ and His Kingdom).

In the parable of the virgins..there is the calling out to awaken to the Kingdom of God. we know His Kingdom is come in Holy Spirit, Who is the Spirit of Christ Jesus, and is righteousness, peace and joy.

Not only is there an individual calling out and into, but a corporate calling out and into of the kingdom of darkness(midnight) and into the Governing( Kingdom) of God. All ten were asleep and all ten awoke and rose up..all had heard the sound but not all had prepared hearts to receive the word of the Kingdom.

this is the kjv and we need remember in reading this, He is speaking of the seed of the word of the Kingdom being sown.

Luke 8:1 "And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

 2And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

 3And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

 4And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:

 5A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

 6And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

 7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

 8And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 9And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

 10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

 11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

 12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

 15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

 

*underline emph. mine*

 

 



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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 2:18pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

I can live with that interpretation of the parable.  In either interpretation, the issue is preparation for the Bridegroom--either to receive His Kingdom on earth or in heaven at the end.  I will give this some consideration.  Thank you for your thought-provoking responses.

Edited by David Ryser on 01/19/2009 at 2:20pm


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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 2:33pm | IP Logged Quote Philip Hanson

A few years ago (between 5 and 10), I used to agitate a fellow worker in the office.

 

I would come up to the opening of their cubicle, and with a mischievous twinkle in my eye, would say, “Jesus is not coming back today.”

 

 This would always elicit a response of, “You can’t say that!”

 

And, then, we would both continue our day.

 

 What started all this?  It was our differences in understanding the end times, and the return of the Lord Jesus.

 

Most Christians talk about the return of the Lord Jesus a lot, and we are hoping, a lot, that it is going to happen very soon.

 

Relevant  points relating to this issue:

 

1  Jesus is returning

 

2 Jesus is returning “soon”

 

3  Jesus is not returning as soon as we thought He would

 

4  We are very likely to go to Him (in heaven) before He, Jesus, returns to earth

 

5 It is more important that we are prepared to go to Him (possibly today), than it is for us to try to understand when He (Jesus) is coming again (the Second Coming)

 

6 There is a much greater possibility that you will go to heaven today that the possibility that Jesus will return today to earth.

 

Do we get it yet?  Do we want to get it?

 

Does it amaze anyone about how the first century Christians, basically, all believed that Jesus would return in their lifetime?  Does it amaze anyone that Jesus allowed the leaders and apostles of the first century church to labor under the misunderstanding of His “imminent” return?

 

Read all the books of the New Testament.  There is a common thread in them all.  Which is, “Jesus is coming soon, and soon means in the next 50 years, which is before the Apostle John dies.”

 

How could this have happened?  You may have heard about the rumor -

 

  John  21:

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

 

And what about the testimony of the angels, just before Pentecost -

 

  Acts 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

 

I mean, if you can’t trust the word of angels, who can you trust? (a slight bit of humorous levity here)

 

What did the angels say?  “You saw Him go, and He will return in the same way.”  What do you think they heard?  “You saw Him go, and you will see Him return in the same way.”  Which is to say, Jesus will return within their lifetime.

 

 

And, what about the very words of Jesus?

 

  Matthew 24:32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

 

How could anyone listening to Jesus that day not assume that the end would come within 40 – 70 years?

 

 

So, why isn’t Jesus coming back today?

 

Reason 1 - The Bride is not ready

                          There is much to say here, but time does not permit.

 

Read Ephesians 4.  We will see Apostles and Prophets again in maturity, as they are needed to bring the Bride to maturity.

 

When you see the following (see verses from Eph. 4 below), then you can know that the return of the Lord Jesus is really very soon.  That is unity in the faith, and “attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

 

Ephesian 4:12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

 

Reason 2 - The Harvest has not been brought in

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

As much as people want to hope and believe that this job is almost over, the job of seeing the gospel of the kingdom preached in the whole world is far from over.  Most people think that it just refers to a 1 hour sermon to an unreached people group; or just getting a translation of part of the Bible in the language of an unreached people group.  This is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

 

How about this?  What do we think that Jesus meant when he talked about the gospel of the kingdom being preached?  He might have given us a clue -

 

Matthew 10:7 As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. .

 

Again, when you see the gospel of the kingdom being preached in power throughout the world, then you will know that the return of the Lord Jesus is very near.

 

 

Reason 3 - The wheat and the tares (weeds)

 

This also deals with maturity.  We will see the maturing of the wheat, and we will see the maturing of the tares (weeds).  We have not yet seen the maturity of evil yet, and we have not even come close to seeing the maturing of righteousness yet.

 

 

Reason 4 – The Apostle Peter told us what would be happening in the last days.

 

    2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

 

I don’t see this happening yet.  I see the opposite.  Almost everyone is saying, “Jesus is coming back today (or very soon).”

 

 

Reason 5 – The footstool of Jesus is not big enough yet

 

Our Heavenly Father is very involved in making sure that the Lord Jesus has an appropriate footstool.  As you might become aware, the footstool of the Lord Jesus is not nearly big enough yet.

 

Psalm 110:

1 The LORD says to my Lord:

    "Sit at my right hand

  until I make your enemies

    a footstool for your feet."

 

Conclusion?

 

If you are not ready to go meet Jesus today, then start getting ready.  And, if Jesus allows, help others to get ready to go to Jesus.  It is basically certain that all who read this will go into eternity before the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.  Prepare accordingly.  Or, continue to believe something else.

 

Hear the words of Joshua, to his generation -

 

  Joshua  24:14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

 

Basically, choose something, and get going.  Enough sitting on the fence.  Those who say that they believe that the return of Jesus is imminent are not living like it.

 

Oh, and if you have not been offended yet, then get ready. 

 

 

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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 3:01pm | IP Logged Quote GaryFPatton

richard gilman wrote:

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 

This portion of the word.. I substituted the american church trying to make it pratical...



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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 3:04pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

Philip,

Although the timing of the rapture, or even the biblical case for the existence of such a thing (except perhaps for the rapture of the wicked recorded in Matthew 13), was intentionally outside the perview of my article, you absolutely nailed the core issues of the whole debate of preparation.  And you identified and expounded my main point better than did I.  We are to love Jesus with all our hearts and serve Him as if we really do love Him.  He will come when He is good and ready.

Enjoyed your posting.  Thoughtful, biblically sound, and well-reasoned.  Thank you.

Dave



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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 3:07pm | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

This participation has been part of Gods leading me to do a teaching on the bride, my revelation that Abba Father gave me was she is very precious .. I think also to note that our doctrinal predisposition towards clavinism or arminism affects how we percieve peoples salvation or expereince.

Do i believe the LORD is coming this janurary? I desire it so, im longing for true face to face as He has promised me in my inner man. Once in the "american church" Jesus came to me as i was worshipping Him and said step out of your body and come here. I did by faith and He said i just wanted to give u a hug. Later He explained to me that it was spirit to spirit that He wanted.. I hate my flesh and cant wait for the incorruptible one i will be given..

I believe the LORD has clearly directed me and mandated me to write a strong word about this very subject . Please pray for me..

In closing i must say this, u cannot say you love someone and call them a whore.. I pray that we at least come up to the old testament standard hosea had, i cant see him calling gomer a whore..



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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 3:10pm | IP Logged Quote GaryFPatton

richard gilman wrote:

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

 This portion of the word.. I substituted the american church trying to make it pratical...



Thank you, Richard, for clarifying that you were quoting your understanding of  I John 4:20 in your comment above.

Of course, you may paraphrase God's Word as you see fit.

However, I cannot agree that your use of "American church" as a synonym for "Brother" in this Scripture is saying the same thing in the context of your reaction to what David was saying.

Blessings!



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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 3:14pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

Richard,

Please consider carefully rereading my article and posts.  I never called the Bride or and of my Christian Brothers & Sisters a whore.  I was referring to the Church system (I am most famliar with the American Church) which has made the Body of Christ into a business.  What would you call a body which has become a business?  A prostitute.  Jesus is coming for His bride--I have no quarrel with the Bride except to counsel her to prepare.

I suspect our positions on this matter might be closer than at first appears.  And I never did give my opinion one way or another on the existence or timing of a rapture.  Nor do I intend to.

God's blessings be yours, Lover of God.

Dave



Edited by David Ryser on 01/19/2009 at 3:18pm


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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 9:18pm | IP Logged Quote Kathy Bippus

David, i do hear what you are saying and do hear what you are saying in your article. What sometimes causes a misunderstanding is the use of the word church verses religious system which is very much connected with Babylon, Mother of Harlots. Has that infiltrated even the church( ekklesia: called out ones)?  we can look and see in the calling out in Rev.18:4

Yes Babylon is brought down, we co-laboring with Him in it. She is the Mother, the one who gives birth to harlots( idolators) and the abominations(idolatries) of the earth.

In reading through Rev. it really is a Love epistle.

When we begin to get a view of Who resides within and His Kingdom which resides within us and in our midst as His collective body, these things are cast down and out. Just as in, you can't serve God and mammon, you will serve one or the other..the love (coveting) money is the root of all evil. The rich, poor and everyone in between can do so. The deification of wealth.

He is calling out as you have said, to wake up..repent, turn around, to think differently and awaken to the Kingdom, Governing of God.

What i'm sharing here is that His Kingdom tears down, throws down, destroys unrighteousness and builds and plants righteousness..right-relating, right- relationship producing peace and joy. Wherein the other is false..producing false peace, false joy, false comfort, etc.

Not getting into endtime stuff right now*smiles*, only to make mention of this in meaning of `then the end will come". The end: the goal, the purpose. come: arrive.

blessings,



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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 9:31pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

No arguments from me with anything you've written. And, like you, I've not taken a position on the timing of a rapture (if any), nor will I because, frankly, I don't care about it.

Blessings


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Posted: 01/19/2009 at 11:03pm | IP Logged Quote Kathy Bippus



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Posted: 01/20/2009 at 5:28pm | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

David Ryser wrote:
The Bride shows her passion for the Bridegroom by preparing/beautifying herself for Him.  The American Church, taken as a whole, does not display this characteristic.  She merchandises the anointing she does have, though it is precious little, and finds ways to make money by selling the name of Jesus.  Context for this opinion can be supplied by reading the article, Lover or Prostitute?:  The Question that Changed My Life found on this Forums page.

Is Jesus coming back?  Yes, Jesus is coming back, and I am lovesick for Him until He does.  But make no mistake, He is not coming back for a whore.

I  quoted you from this.



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Posted: 01/20/2009 at 7:56pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

He isn't coming back for a whore--would you?  He is coming back for a Bride.  And notice I spoke of the American Church (the system, not the Bride--you and I agree that the visible Church and the Bride are not necessarily the same).  The Bride may be beautiful in comparison to what else is out there, but she still needs preparation.  Esther was the most beautiful woman in the kingdom, but she still endured months of preparation before she was deemed presentable to the King.

You've quoted me accurately.  Interpreted correctly, not so much.  And that is likely my fault because I strike some people as obtuse when I think I am being quite clear.  Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part and the resulting confusion.  Hope this helps.

By the way, our vigorous exchange has motivated me to go back to the original article and rework it to be more clear in differentiating between the religious system and the Bride.  Thanks so much for your part in sharpening my communication of what I believe is a much needed truth.  Bless you, my friend.


Edited by David Ryser on 01/20/2009 at 8:00pm


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Posted: 01/22/2009 at 5:21pm | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

Bless you also brother, I dont travel much but the american church i do see is one in the process of revival. Each house of God i have`attended is experiencing a increased presence of God. The Home church in america and some of the denominations i KNOW THE LORD spoke to me , showed me His Love..

I firmly believe this most people who bash the bride, the american church etc do not truly conceptualize the doctrines of salvation, sanctification in The scriptures..

I firmly believe a lot of "prophetic" writings are based in a foundation of dead works, legalism.. The Apostle of Grace (show me who had more) didnt call the corinthian church a whore..

Its time to stop labeling good evil ,, yes there are some bad leaven spreaders in the body, lets pray for them confront them , and expose the wrongs in the doctrine.. BUT stop labeling the whole on the actions of a few..

 



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Posted: 01/22/2009 at 8:24pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

Good points.  Good theology.  Have very much enjoyed our exchange.  The Bible teaches that iron sharpens iron, and experience teaches me that sparks fly when pieces of iron collide.  It's been fun, but I'm ready to call a cease-fire now that we have clearly laid out our positions.

Sadly, there is biblical precedent for the whole being spoiled by the few.  The incident of Achan comes to mind.  If 10% of the employees of a company fail to do their jobs, and the company fails, 100% of the workers are out of work--even the good ones.

In closing this chapter of our lives, I want to go back and lay out once more the main point of the article.  Since many who followed our exchange might, like yourself, be ministers, I will use ministerspeak:  The article is not about our eschatology, nor is the article about our ecclesiology; the article is about the condition of our hearts.


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Posted: 01/23/2009 at 5:04pm | IP Logged Quote richard gilman

Yes i agree that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. What u dont see is that there is a good leaven leavening the remnant. Are u from america or another country may i ask?

Gary huh? You are saying the american church is all heathen, and not brothers?

David simple jesusology, i must first purge judge my own heart before i speak to another..

I must say this and i KNOW it is God, Luke ch 18 tells us of two people, ones who knew they were sinners, and ones who thanked God they were not like the american church. People who are turning away from wickedness towards God though they may be a long ways away, vs those who knew Him once and have turned aside because of pride the seduction of criticisms, arent headed to Jesus but headed towards the traducers camp..

Paul who i quote often was a wise master builder, he built a church in corinth not on words of speaking evil of God ordained leaders but of true love.. Let us strive to follow his example of grace, humility and tenderness towards those who are called by the name of Jesus..

 



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Posted: 01/23/2009 at 7:55pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

Wow.  I'm done. I think it's time for me to obey 2 Timothy 2:23.

Edited by David Ryser on 01/23/2009 at 9:07pm


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Posted: 01/24/2009 at 4:00am | IP Logged Quote GaryFPatton

I agree, David!

Blessings,


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Posted: 01/24/2009 at 7:05am | IP Logged Quote Ron McGatlin


Dr. David wrote:
Quote:
It’s easy to criticize the sorry state of the Church until we realize the Church is nothing more than the aggregate of its members; in other words, I am the Church (and so are you).  When I stopped looking at the things I mentioned earlier to signal the return of Jesus (Israel, floods, earthquakes, famines, wars, etc.), I began to look somewhere else--into my own heart.  Am I prepared as a Bride for my Bridegroom?  Do I love Him with all of my heart and yearn for Him with all of my being?  Am I producing a harvest--a harvest of the life of Jesus that was planted in me--in my life?  Am I accurately representing God in the world through my speech and actions?  Am I doing the things Jesus did and saying the things Jesus said?  Does my touch impart life or death to others?

Yes, and Amen!

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Posted: 01/28/2009 at 6:53am | IP Logged Quote Arla Speer

richard gilman wrote:

A question for the author? Do u long for His appearing? How does this article spur me onto a greater passion for His return?

Mr. Gilman,

It should not be about His return if it is true that He lives in you now.  The only difference that should happen between this life and life after His return is geographical.  Why long for something you already have access to?



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Posted: 01/28/2009 at 12:53pm | IP Logged Quote Rebecca Speer

Frankly, I'm finding it difficult to understand why it matters so much when Jesus is coming back.We can't control his second coming and, if I'm not mistaken, the bible specifically says that NO ONE KNOWS when the second coming is (please, correct me if I'm wrong).

I've always found it interesting that people lean on the fact that God is coming back soon, when in all reality, God lives outside of time. You've probably heard the saying something to the effect of, 'what is 100 years to us could only be the blink of an eye for God.' I have to wonder if the definition of his coming back "soon" is something that we can even comprehend.

As I stated earlier, I don't understand why the timing of the second coming matters so much. I know lots of people that are involved with an organization who's sole purpose is to preach about the end times. They are so geared toward the end times (again, why does it matter) and honestly I don't think anyone on the face of the planet really knows where we are according to God's second coming timeline. The first-generation church thought Jesus was coming back in their lifetime and I don't think there has been a generation yet that hasn't thought the same.

At this point I must remind myself of a criticle distinction: the second coming is going to come about whenever (I don't really care), but God's already here. If I can quote someone else: Why do we ask God to 'come' to our meetings when he is already there? I've seen people beg God to show up, and he was there the whole time... Because I've practically grown up in the church, this has been a difficult thing to rap my mind around, in fact I don't remember this critical fact most of the time. I still find myself slipping back into the prayers I've been taught to pray, understanding now that some of them are completely irrelivant (like asking God to show up).

If Christianity, true Christianity, is all it's cracked up to be then God is here, has always been here, and will always be here - no matter what (where 'here' is this living breathing human being). It intregues me to know this in that there are so many people who go to church and do all the right 'church stuff' and yet I don't think they really believe in God. And I'm not excluding myself here. For most of my life I've done the 'good little christian' thing: I've gone to church and been an active participant in everything from sunday school to retreats to confrences to mission trips. And now the thing I find myself asking most is what does it really matter that I did all that? After all, even the devil believes in Jesus...

In writing this, it all makes sense to me. But if I'm not being as clear as I think I am, please, let me know.

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Posted: 01/29/2009 at 1:46am | IP Logged Quote Tim Speer

I am wondering, is II Timothy 4:8 eschatalogical or another mis-interpreted verse?

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Posted: 01/29/2009 at 4:58pm | IP Logged Quote David Ryser

It is and it isn't.  The awarding of crowns certainly is.  The loving His appearing seems to point back to a past event (the first appearing of Christ on the earth) or to a present reality (the revelation of Jesus in their lives, or the manifestation of Jesus in their corporate lives as a church).  In any case, there are a host of other scriptures we've interpreted as belonging to Jesus' second coming that are, in fact, talking about now.

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