Posted: 01/06/2009 at 9:50pm | IP Logged

The Rapture Revealed - Part 1
Nathan Leal - June 6, 2008
http://www.watchmanscry.com/archives.html

Introduction

The rapture, what is it? So many images come to mind don’t they? We have seen them in movies. Read about them in books, and heard preachers describing various “scary” rapture scenarios. Unfortunately, these popular images of the “rapture” are the cause of Christians not knowing the REAL truth about this subject.

What do I mean? Well let me explain. The “Rapture” is portrayed in people’s minds under a false point of view.  What point of view is that? 

Before I answer, let me ask you a question.

If I were to ask you, “What is the reason for the Rapture?” What would your answer be?  What would most Christians say?

Give up?  I will tell you.

Most people would say that the reason for the rapture is so that Christians won’t have to be in the tribulation.

Based on this answer alone, the rapture doctrine nullifies itself! Why? Because people think that the reason for the Rapture is to escape pain and suffering.

A Challenge

By the time you are finished reading this lesson, you will see what I mean.

I will even go as far as to say this, “If you believe that the reason for the rapture is so that you will not have to face the pain and trials of the tribulation, then you are denying the main focus of the gospel of Christ!”

Strong words huh? I assume that I have your attention now!

It would take volumes to biblically explain in the long version, so I will try to teach this in a short version.

Whenever we desire truth, we must always use the scriptures. When we use the scriptures, we must follow certain rules.

1. We must arrive at any doctrinal conclusion by using the “whole” sum of the scriptures. “The sum of Your word is truth,” Psalms 119:160 (This means that we cannot arrive at a doctrinal conclusion based on only one verse in the Bible.)
   
   
2. We must have at our disposal, Biblical Word study helps like a concordance to see the original meaning of the words that we are studying. The original words often have a deeper meaning than the translated words.
   
   
3. We must realize that some words in the scriptures are not in the original texts. The translators often added words to give the words a better flow. This is often noted in good Bibles by printing those types of words in italics.
   
   
4. Without the Spirit of God to open your eyes, you WILL NOT comprehend truth in the scriptures. Therefore always pray and ask God to open your eyes and reveal His mysteries to you.

A Foundation

Okay, now that we have that out of the way, let’s begin.

In order to learn a doctrine, we cannot start in the middle. We have to start at the beginning.

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead,..” 
Hebrews 6:1

According to this verse, there are some parts of doctrine that everyone SHOULD be taught as baby Christians, and also SHOULD know. In other words a mature Christian should not be struggling with these basic things.

So I ask you brethren, how many of you have been thoroughly taught these basic things?

1. Repentance form dead works...
2. Faith toward God…
3. Doctrine of baptisms…
4. Laying on of hands (this one obviously has not been taught, look at the Todd Bentley mess! Christians are flocking to this seer possessed with a spirit of divination and letting him lay hands on them!)
5. And of Resurrection of the dead…

So there you go folks, a brief list of basics that the church HAS NOT been taught about.

The Resurrection

For now, I want to focus on (# 5) “And of Resurrection of the dead…”  Now did you see anywhere on this basic list, the rapture mentioned? Which again, is the event to rescue Christians from the “mean” antichrist?  I do not see it!

What I do see is the word “resurrection”. What is the resurrection? Well, that one is easy. It is when dead people come back to life. Just like Jesus did.

By nature, humans are so foolish, blind and arrogant, including Christians. And Christians have the silly audacity to think that the rapture is about “Rescue”, no, no, no!

Brethren Jesus said that He was the “resurrection and the life" (John 11:25). Even though He died, he was raised. The hope of the gospel is for those that have died, that they might be raised to eternal life!

Do you see it yet brethren, our Lord has 6000 years of godly dead people that need resurrecting! So the “Rapture” is NOT about rescuing Christians from an unpleasant time period. In fact the word “rapture” is not in the Bible anywhere. I will tell you what IS in the Bible, the word “Resurrection!”

Do you see now why I said that if one thinks that the rapture is about rescue, then that person is denying the gospel? The gospel is about resurrection to eternal life, NOT escape from the tribulation!

So let’s go on. Now, if sometime in the period of mankind, God is going to resurrect all of His dead children to eternal life, common sense tells us that some group of living people will witness it during their lives.

Common sense also says that God will have to use a different plan for the living people. That plan of course would be that the living people will not have to taste death. So as an “icing on the cake”, after the big resurrection event of the dead, the living get to join them.

We Shall be Changed

The living will take part in the resurrection by having their bodies change to an immortal body.

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” 1 Corinthians 15:51

So it is about resurrection, folks, not rescue!

Now that we know that truth, the next logical question would be, “When will the resurrection happen?”  What does the Bible say? We want truth, right brethren, not the words or traditions of men.

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” 
1 Corinthians 15:22, 23

Several things are mentioned in these verses. First, there are only two groups of resurrected people.

1. Christ
2. Those that are His at his coming. This would be all the dead in Christ throughout history and also those living.

All in Their Order

The other thing that is mentioned is that each is resurrected in his own “order”. 

So the order is:
Christ - first
The dead and living – second

When does this happen? It also tells us, “at his coming.” 

But where on the timeline does this resurrection happen? The Bible does tell us. Look at the next verse in that same passage:

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.” 
1 Corinthians 15:24

So according to this verse, right after the resurrection, is the end. It did not say, “Then cometh seven years of tribulation!”

At the Last Day

There are more verses to confirm this timing.

“And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” John 6:39

And

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:40

And

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44

And

“So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens are no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” Job 14:12  

Could it be any more clear brethren? Our hope is the resurrection which will occur at the “LAST DAY!”

The last day of what, you ask? The last day of this age!

Now some could “weakly” try to argue that it means the last day before the tribulation starts.

But did you read what Job 14:12 said? We stay dead “till the heavens are no more!” 

Could the earth have the heavens being no more, but still have seven years added to it? Absurd!

Conclusion: Folks the Rapture is a fictional tradition of men. We should instead be referring to this event as the "resurrection as our hope".

In part two, I will show where the resurrection happens in Revelation.

The Rapture Revealed - Part 2
Nathan Leal - June 22, 2008

Part one - Read

In part one, we learned that the “resurrection” was the “foundational reason” or “truth” for the “Rapture event.”  (If you have not read part one, it is recommended.)

In this lesson we are going to discuss an event that will occur right after the “resurrection.”

But I must warn you, this lesson gets pretty DEEP! So you may have to read it twice. I also recommend that you pray right now and ask God to open your eyes to the “Manna” that you are about to receive!

Foreshadows

Many of the biblical traditions that we practice on earth are a shadow of Heaven’s realities. At the beginning of man’s creation, God ordained the institution of marriage.

Marriage between a man and a woman was established by God to illustrate the relationship that we will have with Christ for all eternity. When I say, “We,” I am talking about the “Church” or “Body of Christ.”

As members of the Christ’s Church, we are a part of his “ekklesia,” or “called out ones.” We are the bride of Christ. After this age is over, we will be united in marriage to Christ.

John the Baptist understood this truth. And he prophetically spoke of it:

"He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease."  John 3:29,30

What John meant was that his friend “Jesus” was the bridegroom, and hearing the voice of Jesus speaking to His future “bride” (the redeemed of Israel) brought John much joy.

The amazing and precious truth about the Bride being married to Christ will be fulfilled when the two segments of His bride, as “one unit” marry Christ at His coming.

Huh?

Are you confused? What do I mean by two segments? I used the term “two segments” for illustration purposes.

And actually in God’s eyes, there are not two segments of the bride, but one segment.

Unfortunately, many of today’s Christian’s do not understand this truth.

This truth is a great mystery.

Let me explain, The future bride of Christ Is ISRAEL!

Israel exists in the form of the original branch of “Old Testament Israel” and the grafted branch of the “New Testament Body of Christ” which is new Israel.

The scriptures confirm this truth in the passage referring to Israel of the Old Testament:

"For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called."  Isaiah 54:5

The following scripture refers to the New Testament Body of Christ being the bride:

“For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”  Ephesians 5:31,32

So in these two verses, we can see that the “bride” of Christ consists of the original branch – “Israel” and the “New Testament Church” in “unity” married as “one” body to Christ. 

There is One Israel

A deception and false teaching of man tries to separate Israel into one group and the Church as another group, but according to scripture Israel is Israel. There is ONE Israel!

The church through the mercies of God is a "grafted branch" into the same tree as Israel.

In God’s eyes, the church today IS Israel:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."     I Peter 2:9,10

This is exciting Brethren because the bride of Christ is “ONE” group of people, Israel and the church combined!!

Look what Ephesians says about us and how the church is the bride:

"Husbands love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."  Ephesians 5:25-27

So here, the church is called the wife of Christ.

What About the Rapture?

Now, some of you are probably wondering, “What does this have to do with the rapture?”

Well, I explained this so that the rest of this lesson will make more sense. It is important to understand that the “resurrection” event is also a “WEDDING” event.

Folks, it is exciting that Israel and the Church “together” will be married to Christ when He returns.

Now, when we have weddings here on earth, we also have a time of celebration or a reception.  Depending on the culture there can be a “little bit of food” or “a lot of food.”  A wedding feast!

It is the same with God.

Some day soon brethren, when we are united and married to Christ at His return, He has promised to give us a wedding reception and feast to celebrate with Him. God calls it the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” or “Wedding Feast.”

Error in The Church

Now here is where a false teaching and traditions of man have spoiled the truth of God’s Word.

And it is unfortunate, because I have heard this falsehood repeated over and over by ministers behind pulpits to believing Christians. 

The sad part is that these pastors are supposed to be educated scholars of the scriptures. They should be accurately handling the Word of truth.

What am I talking about?

The fable that the “marriage supper of the lamb” will occur right after the pre-tribulation rapture and seven years before Jesus returns to earth.

You've heard this haven’t you? While the church is up in heaven at the start of the 7 year
tribulation, “terrible trouble” will break loose on the earth.

And while those that are “left behind” on the earth are suffering for 7 years, the church will be eating the heavenly food of the “wedding feast”.

See Picture chart…….

But friends, does the Bible really say this?

We cannot have any biblical beliefs if they cannot be found in scripture. Can we?

So let’s see what the scriptures tell us.

At the end of the Book of Revelation, we find the “Second Coming of Christ.”

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”
Revelation 19:11

Most of us have read this verse and can agree that this is the “Second Coming of Jesus”, right?

By the time that we arrive to this part of Revelation, the great tribulation is at its end. The arrival of Jesus will end this horrible time on earth.

But I want to draw your attention to something.

The Feast

Let’s go back a few verses in Chapter 19 and read what it says. Precisely four verses sooner;

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."   Revelation 19:8,9

Do you see that brethren? “The Marriage of the Lord is come.”  and, “His wife has made herself ready…”   

Now here comes the truth that we cannot ignore folks.  We were just told that the “bride hath made herself ready.”

The “Bride” is finally ready and we are at the END of the tribulation period! We are in Revelation chapter 19. The bride is not ready till Revelation 19. But we are given the fable by preachers across the country that the bride gets raptured in Revelation chapter 4. That is absurd!

How did the bride become ready? By purging!

The only way this can be accomplished is by enduring the Great Tribulation, which means no pre-tribulation rapture snatched away the Christians seven years prior!

And now let’s look at the next verse folks, Revelation 19:9:

“And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.”   Revelation 19:9

Do you see it? We just read that the time for the “Wedding Feast” or “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” is at the end of the tribulation!

When Jesus arrives on his white horse, the tribulation period will be finished and complete. And it is at the end of the timeline that we see the marriage supper mentioned and occurring.

So according to your Bible and my Bible… The “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” does not happen seven years prior to the return of Christ!

Why the Error?

So now, I must ask an honest question folks.”Why are pastors telling us that the wedding feast is seven years prior?”

I will tell you why, because the fable of the Pre-tribulation rapture is built on a “false” house of cards. And part of the fable needs the “wedding feast” to happen seven years prior to the “Return of Christ.”

But we just studied and read that it does not happen seven years sooner at the beginning of the Tribulation. So if the timing for the wedding feast is wrong for pre-tribulationists. Their fable cannot stand!

So, I ask you folks? Why do preachers teach this?

Because they believe in the fable of the pre-tribulation rapture!

I have often wondered why it is so hard for these ministers to believe otherwise!

I have observed that the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching is held almost as high as salvation itself with some of these teachers.

Why is that, brethren? I don’t know?

Folks, there is so much deception out there and twisting of scripture, that it is no wonder the church is in a state of immaturity and in need of purging. 

But good news for us brethren, we are children of truth.  With the light of God’s Word we can be among the wise ones.

I pray that this lesson blesses you and helps you to understand this “Mystery of God!”

( To Be Continued )
 
God bless you,


Nathan - A Watchman

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Posted: 01/16/2009 at 3:40pm | IP Logged

And how is going through the tribualtion, in any sane way a blessed hope, or written to comfort believers? Personally i am ready to go through it if that is Abbas plan but in both the old and new covenants our God is seen as one who delivers.

I think perhaps we need to do a study of the tribulation, its purpose is to pour out the wrath of the Lamb on those who have not bowed and kissed the son, to include the bride in this event maligns the very character of YHWH..

Posted: 10/01/2009 at 7:07am | IP Logged

The word does say those that endure to the end will be saved.  Just like God delivered Noah and his family from the flood.  Noah was not taken out of the world.  The word is so plain in explaining to us they were on the ark, and the ark was on the waters, and the waters were on the earth and not heaven. I now laugh at my total ignorance of believing the teaching of men instead of the word concerning the rapture. I was an idiot. Noah is not a good illustration to use as an example of the rapture. 

In fact, the unrighteous ones were  removed from the earth. The word is clear the meek shall inherit the earth (ta-da, Noah did). It says in Psalms the righteous shall inherit the land (Noah did).  The righteous ones always are delivered out of trouble and the unrighteous are taken away.

Lot is not a good example of the rapture either.  He was removed from the city, but not the earth.  He was told where to go while the city was being destroyed. The unrighteous Sodomites were destroyed with the other cities in the plain.

Lot is an example for Christians during the next few years.  Christians will be told where to go while the unrighteous are being destroyed. The righteous are guaranteed to inherit the land (earth). There will be  righteous ones here when Jesus returns to rule the next thousand years.

Posted: 10/01/2009 at 11:19am | IP Logged

• A Closer look at the Rapture
• Noah's Ark
• Day and Night
• The sounding of the Trumpets
• One Shall Be Taken
• The Rapture of the Church-What is it?
• Treasures of Darkness
• Treasures of Darkness

Posted: 11/30/2009 at 5:20pm | IP Logged

Well, first of all, that was a really llllloooooooonnnnnngggg article. Mercy!

Secondly, I think folks might want to read Ron's Kingdom Growth Guides if they haven't already read them.

Third, if the kingdom of God is coming to earth and Jesus returned in the Holy Spirit and we are to become like him doing those things he did and doing what the Father tells us to do, then why do we need a rapture? Is the church so screwed up that it can't change the earth and, therefore, needs to exit stage left and give it over to the enemy? How is that God-like? How about we grow up into sons and daughters of God, become holy and pure vessels and then go kick some butt and bring the Kingdom of God to earth? How about we realize the enemy can only mess with us and the earth because we have given him license to do it? How about we realize who we are by allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal to us God's plan for our lives.

There's some folks that believe the rapture doctrine was the result of some 16-year old girl's vision back in the 1600 or 1700s and some folks went to seed on it.

For some good radical processing in the Spirit, I suggest folks read carefully Ron's growth guides and Laurence Lilley's articles. Those articles will help you "get the vision" and realize what wonderful plans God has for those that chooose to grow up into sons and daughters of God. The earth is Gods. Adam dropped the ball and Satan got earth. Jesus came back and got the earth back and two thousand years later we're still supposed to get the earth back and return it to God. Not take a powder in a mass flight out of here. ("Take a powder" is a 1960s expression to leave a place.)

Posted: 12/01/2009 at 10:14am | IP Logged

well said Leslie, yes!, how about we realize He did return and quit gazing around still looking for an event. How about we realize the New Wine has been poured into new wineskins( new creatures).  How about we realize when He cried out "it is finished," He meant it, it is completely completed and as Laurence would say, 'quit mucking around.' : )

Posted: 12/01/2009 at 12:14pm | IP Logged

NEEDFUL THINGS - The Churchs' of Mary and Martha

"Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her".

Luke 10:38-42

"It is finished!"  

Have we been charged with building the kingdom of God so that He will - HE CAN come again?

Sound familiar?

As if His coming is contingent upon human works  ...

If God has un-finished buisness it must mean that "buisness" that is un-finished will be something that the rest of the world - the other people - wont be ready for.... I mean time will be "up" right ???

Havent they been warned?

Then is our charge to again warn the other people to flee God's wrath - TO PREPARE THE WAY for a God who demands our works?   

Or is His Buisness something we dont completley understand yet - a business that has already been laid to rest - finished?

Posted: 12/01/2009 at 3:01pm | IP Logged

 It seems that it is with these three( Martha, Mary and Lazarus), their lives, their home, He found a place to rest His head. : ) Not so much because of who they were, or did(doings) but because He could show Himself to be Who He is. "I Am the Resurrection and the Life"

Mary chose a beneficial thing, Martha chose a beneficial thing as well..as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming she went out and met Him, but Mary sat still(fixed) in the house. a bit later..Martha runs to Mary..the Master is come and He calls for you.

"Then is our charge to again warn the other people to flee God's wrath - TO PREPARE THE WAY for a God who demands our works?   

Or is His Buisness something we dont completley understand yet - a business that has already been laid to rest - finished? "

i'm with you on this Vince..our Kingdom(business) being sons of our Father's Kingdom is to proclaim in demonstration of Spirit and power, His Kindom...leavening the whole lump with "it is finished'..sowing His Kingdom on earth, therefore reaping His Kingdom on earth.

understanding His wrath as spoken of in revelation, we need understand the the Lamb of God Who bore the wrath of God, Who took the cup...the sinless, spotless Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. He Who knew no sin became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God. He became the curse(death) for us that we receive blessing(Life). Who is now our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek...King of Peace, Jerusalem...New Jerusalem. John saw New Jerusalem coming down in Spirit. : )

it's a business that is already laid to rest..finished. only believe. whatever a man believes, he will act upon...will manifest his belief aka faith without works is dead. and we see some of the `why' as Leslie brought out in her statement/question "Is the church so screwed up that it can't change the earth and, therefore, needs to exit stage left and give it over to the enemy? How about we grow up into sons and daughters of God, become holy and pure vessels and then go kick some butt and bring the Kingdom of God to earth?"

Posted: 12/01/2009 at 3:38pm | IP Logged

Kathy ~ "... understanding His wrath as spoken of in revelation, we need understand the the Lamb of God Who bore the wrath of God, Who took the cup...the sinless, spotless Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world..."  

Yes it is interesting to me that John the Baptist said, "Who warned you to FLEE the wrath to come?" at first glance this dosent make much sense because arent we supposed to FLEE wrath ???

Unless we dont understand "wrath" thus creating a false polarity between the Lamb and Grace.  

Posted: 12/01/2009 at 5:09pm | IP Logged

first Vince, let me say, thank you for seeing past all the typo's i made lol but this one is pretty cool "His Kindom" eh? : )

you wrote "Yes it is interesting to me that John the Baptist said, "Who warned you to FLEE the wrath to come?" at first glance this dosent make much sense because arent we supposed to FLEE wrath ???"  lol excellent Vince! absolutely excellent! yes John the baptist who pointed to Him..the Lamb of God

yeah, the false polarity is propagated by/through unbelief : )

Posted: 12/02/2009 at 6:59am | IP Logged

Kevin very good points  ~

Futurism tends to push into the future the ramifications of his coming to the earth - Emmanuel, God is WITH US. 

If we deny the Present Manifestation of God then we delegate to the future an escapism - we must escape an evil projected as those others who are less than elite.

There is even a "christian" video game out now - shooting non-christians in the streets at the END OF DAYS

Posted: 12/02/2009 at 2:58pm | IP Logged

 Kevin wrote, "How can fail to see this beautiful
covenant connection between Jesus and His many membered
body?}

Wake up Ekklesia! You are an already 'called out,
snatched, seized and ransomed. "

yes and set apart by the indwelling Spirit of His Son Who cries out, Abba Father in our hearts.

Vince, all : )  the Eternal entered time and as then, is now, God is with us in Spirit reconciling all things unto Himself.  His throne(rule/governing/kingdom) is established within us and through us. He is our Head, He is our Husband now. the sceptre of His throne is righteousness..that which makes the crooked places straight, being just.

mercy triumphed over judgment through Christ Jesus..the cross, death, burial and resurrection. if this oh so great salvation be disregarded, how will we flee? to whom can we go? there is no other deliverance, wholeness, there is no other authority given among men.  there is no other mediation.

now He has chosen in and through us, His habitation, to make Himself and His Kingdom known. being given the keys to the Kingdom/governing/rule of heaven(God), whatsoever we bind on earth is bound in heaven and whatsoever we loose on earth is loosed in heaven.

Life and death are in the power of the tongue..who can tame it? the Spirit of the Living God..out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. our words will locate our living out of. His Kingdom/governing/rule of Love, Life, Light or the kingdom of darkness..death, fear, unbelief, self-ish, pride, etc. just in this little tidbit of seeing, the kingdom of darkness for what it is..we can see why and where the doctrine of the rapture comes from. demonically inspired/looks like light, to kill, steal and destroy the seed/word of the Kingdom from within the hearts of men. doctrines of demons, traditions of men pervert to prevent the walking out on earth..kings and priests unto God..now. the doctrine will place it within a futuristic context, when it is all already completed in Christ( it is finished) and the sending of His Spirit..only believe! as man thinks in his heart, so is he.

if indeed "as He is so are we in this world"..and He is bodily Resurrected and seated at the right hand of Father and we are in Him and in this our Love is made perfect(consummated) and in this we have boldness in the day of judgment(Divine Law)...what is being said? and who is bewitching from the pure gospel..Christ Crucified, Christ the power of God, Christ the wisdom of God?

Posted: 12/02/2009 at 4:43pm | IP Logged

Kriston wrote, "mans wisdom=forehead and mans works=hand."

yes, the first adam.

what saddens me Kriston and i'm not pointing this out to you or about you or any such thing or way, but this is what we do..."it's they or them"  which  reveals the adamic nature still yet living, not reckoning/judging him as dead, crucified with Christ. though one may remove oneself from said, "buildings, man-made organizations, rights, and tax status" these things still exist within.  and so what is really the deeper issue?

Posted: 12/02/2009 at 6:42pm | IP Logged

yeah, it's an issue of the heart, our not yet made new soul or renewed soul to His thoughts producing ways. i think Kevin and Vince brought this out earlier: anything that opposes, whether in word or deed, that Jesus is come in the flesh, is anti-christ. simply put, it is the governing of the flesh, instead of Christ Jesus and His Kingdom/Governing.

i am finding more and more, the gospel of His Kingdom is a Love that far surpasses them all : )

Posted: 12/02/2009 at 7:32pm | IP Logged

John 17:15

'...I do not ask that thou mayest take them out of the world, but that thou mayest keep them out of the evil.'

{Comment: Our Lord was praying to the Father just before going to Calvary. Does  it sound  like He wants His people to disappear and vanish from the earth? What do you think?}

Judas (not Iscariot) had an interesting conversation with our Lord in John chapter 14:22. Look at the question he asked Messiah and notice the answer...

John 14:21, 'He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him".

Pop Quiz:

- Did Judas want to know - how the Lord would {manifest Himself, reveal Himself, unveil Himself} to the disciples but not to the rest of the world?  (Select one: Yes or No)

- Did Jesus explain that He and the Father would {manifest themselves, reveal and unveil themselves} by making their abode in the disciples? (Select one: Yes or No)

-  Is it true, based on John 17:15, that Jesus Christ prayed to the Father asking that believers not be removed or taken away from the earth? (Select one: Yes or No)

Posted: 12/03/2009 at 8:23am | IP Logged

THE THRONE OF SECONDS

Kriston ~ The flesh driven church has an aversion to persecution, and is desperately looking for an evil representative to fight in the flesh.

Kathy ~  the doctrine will place it within a futuristic context, when it is all already completed in Christ ( it is finished) 

Kevin ~ Is it true, based on John 17:15, that Jesus Christ prayed to the Father asking that believers not be removed or taken away from the earth?

All revelation and wisdom of the nature of Emmanuel.

If I deny that the manifestation of God has come to the flesh then I will look for an evil representative because I am denying Emmanuel God is with US.

Jesus coming to the flesh - is completion, it is perfect in its grace - there is no law above it, no criteria for OUR acceptence.

Jesus coming to the flesh reveals to us the Ancient of Days - that at the End of Days we need not be removed  from the earth to avoid his wrath ~ but that wrath is already upon those who judge others.

The spirit of antichrist denies that Jesus Christ has come to the flesh therefore re-placing his throne with the One who has always ruled in humility.

The spirit of anti-christ is being cast down from the 2nd "heavens" as we give rightful place to the lowly carpenter.

In the first heaven everyone is first.

Posted: 12/03/2009 at 10:30am | IP Logged

Kris

Posted: 12/03/2009 at 1:04pm | IP Logged

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Posted: 12/03/2009 at 2:57pm | IP Logged

Here is the error of certian kingdom teachers who have made up thier minds they want to believe something regardless of the truth

They take one scripture that fits what they want to believe. then they nullify any modifying scripture that clarifies further what God is trying to say in the testimony of scripture.

Example: Chrsit died for all and bore the wrath of God for all mankind. True! 

False Conclusion: all are saved regardless of whether they believe or not...

Modifying truth found in MANY, MANY, MANY, places in scriptures: Salvation is only to those who believe. I am not addressing UR teaching neccessarily. I am addressing the way in which we are saved. There are those who teach salvation is not dependant upon faith because of the false conclusion they make over ONE scripture. This is a lie!

Romans 1:16 NIV

Posted: 12/03/2009 at 4:47pm | IP Logged

agree Leslie, the Kingdom Growth Guides are an excellent tool which Holy Spirit has used and uses : )

the former and latter rain came in the pouring out of Holy Spirit to dwell within. the former rain was moderate..Holy Spirit came upon some men/women. He now abides within and upon men/women, being baptized, fully whet, immersed. Peter rose up and said " This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel..." 

in Holy Spirit came the Kingdom/government/rule of God. the Kingdom of God is.. righteousness, peace and joy in Holy Spirit.

if you read through the first chapter of the book of Acts, Jesus with the disciples spoke with them things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. the disciples still yet did not understand the coming Governing/Kingdom in Holy Spirit and sought naturally a natural restoration of the rule(kingdom) of Israel as a nation favored above the nations. But He was not speaking naturally nor of natural Israel. He spoke of a Spirit birthed nation being born in a day. He told them to wait for the promise ( the announcement) of the Father which the delegation of times and seasons was in His authority.  when Jesus was taken up/seized up and they stood gazing up into heaven, two angels stood and said, "why stand you here gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you have seen Him go."

He returned in the same manner which they had beheld. the Resurrected Life of Christ Jesus came in the Person of Holy Spirit, of Whom they received.  in Him came the Governing/Kingdom of God/Heaven, of which Jesus spoke, taught, preached and demonstrated.

having shared this, it is Holy Spirit Who convinces. It is finished, the whole of creation and we within ourselves groan for, look for in patient hope, expecting fully the manifestation( unveiling) of the sons of God. The sinless, spotless Lamb will live His Life in and through. carnality, earthly, fleshly = corruption(adam) gives way to incorruption(Last Adam). doctrines of men, doctrines of demons and traditions of men that have occupied, gives way to the knoweldge of the Truth.

~if you abide in my Divine Expression then are you My disciples indeed; and you will know the Truth and the Truth will make you free.~

His Kingdom is increasing(rising) within and will increase(rise) without(externally). it is a Glorious Mountain that lays to waste all other mountains.

being sons of a King Who owns the earth and the fullness thereof..we will walk as such, we will speak as such ..laying claim, His claim to.  it is not that God is doing something new, it is that we have not gone this way before and so new to us. Holy Spirit is leading. : )

first things first..there must be a death before there can be a resurrection. we must be willing to die to all that one may hold to, all that one may think one knows. Except a grain of corn fall into the ground and die, it abides alone. but if it die, it brings forth much fruit. death, burial, resurrection.

a good read is Matt.5 : )

p.s that grain of corn is one hardshell( pride of man)  ....but thanks be unto God Who gives us the victory through Christ Jesus our Lord! Glory to God!

i've been writing here and there while doing other things, so not sure where this will be on the thread. i may have missed some other posts.

Posted: 12/03/2009 at 10:32pm | IP Logged

Kriston wrote, "God is bringing His glory to bear and it will destroy wickedness as a fire consumes dead wood. In the days of Noah water, and in the days of sons it is fire. "

fully agree. and fully agree about UR being a false teaching. Salvation/deliverence comes to those who appropriate Him and adhering to through faith. which faith which works by Love produces obedience to Father.

from what i am coming to understand Kriston is that His wrath is not as man might would equate..but is a violent passion executing righteousness. so, yes..we co-labor with Him in it. there has been the patient awaiting of the mature fruit.

i would also add the chaff(junk) is being removed from those who are without the four walls...maturing in Love. which really, who or what can stand against?

i look at it this way..you can't kill a dead man. you can't offend a dead man.  a dead man is not puffed up, a dead man doesn't demand his rights..etc. he's already laid down his life. a dead man doesn't go his own way. he'd have to be carried. it is by His Spirit we are borne/carried..not by might nor by power but by My Spirit says the Lord. how can we execute righteous judgment when adam(the adamic nature) is still alive and kicking?

there is so much more, soooo much more if we would but reckon our-self dead and alive unto God through Christ Jesus...put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 7:35am | IP Logged

Kathy, You are correct in understanding that what/the manner in which man has equated as wrath is incorrect. It is His passion, in both Hebrew and Greek. I am not a linguist or a theologian, nor do I need to twist their meanings to fit my image of God. Christians and non-christians alike need to have their image of God re-shaped by God Himself, not by religion, church, or any other doctrine. Wrath, in Greek, is where we get our word "orgy" - can we selah on that one awhile? Wrath is the full weight of God's passion "poured out/directed at" that which is bringing harm to the object of His desire. My wording could be better there - I'll edit it later - but you get the idea. His wrath is poured out against sin. He doesn't love us one minute and whack us the next. But we may feel His wrath within us as the old dies away. And being dead - yes! Dead men have no rights. If that is us, then it would preclude us from standing on the sideline cheering scripture as we watch God whacking everyone else who doesn't believe as we do.

In His Great Love,

Ken

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 8:26am | IP Logged

amen and amen ... good news ...

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 9:06am | IP Logged

The Holy Spirit is more than capable!.....unfortunately, religion - worst of all churchianity has been most guilty of watering Him down and neutering Him. Too many Christians have mixed their religious/church understanding with what the Holy Spirit has/is truly saying and the result is a convoluted mixture. God is holy. But His holiness and His passion will neither allow Him to play patty cake nor cops and robbers.  Before Jesus was crucified, He spoke some pretty amazing things that, if not twisted, misquoted or taken out of context, are often times - conveniently perhaps - not in our Christianese repetoire. In John 13 He says "A new commandment I give you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that the world may know you are my disciples." 1. Jesus loves us first. 2. We are to love one another just as He loves us. 3. By this the world knows we are His disciples.      I don't think the world knows we are His disciples yet, at least not in the context of this scripture. 1. We really haven't grasped this truth yet. 2. Christians can't even love one another, let alone love one another as Christ loves them. 3. The world is not interested in Christ because they have grown weary of bigoted Christians trying to beat them into submission with their big, fat black Bible. Religion demands that it be right, and uses control, manipulation and fear as it's conversion tactics. Does that "work?" God/Christ/Holy Spirit offer mercy, grace, love and relationship. He works that way. He always has.

Jesus knows me, this I love........He tells me so.

In His Great Love,

Ken

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 10:39am | IP Logged

I have found that those who get in my face "in the name of love" are most interested in appeasing their own fleshly, religious motives. This is what religion does. Religion is very appealing to the flesh; that's why there are so many of them. If someone doesn't like mine, they'll just go make up another one. Jesus came to rescue us from sin and show us the way to the Father that loves us. Looking back into history, God has always been about relationship. He shows us this through His pure love which is in Christ. Mankind equates his understanding of love with this and it doesn't work. God did not send Himself (Jesus) to save us from a schizophrenic, abusive father, who one day wants to destroy us and the next day is endeared to us. God is always endeared to us - always. He wants to save us from sin, and He sent Jesus to show us the way. If His true, pure love is in us, we don't need books or sticks to convince anyone else that He is. If He is present within us, upon us - He does the convincing through love. I say "if" - I really should say "since." Sadly, there is much abuse that takes place in the Name of a Holy, Righteous and Loving Father because it is "if" and not since. When a person isn't interested in the "if" Jesus, we resort to strong arm tactics - power evangelism?.. to try to convince them otherwise. If the person is not interested in the "since" Jesus that can be clearly seen within us and upon us, we should simply walk away. It is about Him, after all; not us. If it wasn't accomplished by Him and through Him, I'm not going to try to one-up Him.

In His Great Love,

Ken

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 1:54pm | IP Logged

yes Ken, we have to be willing to lay down everything..including our biblology : ) which you described very well in "religious/churchianity". religious churchianity runs deep, deeper than what we may yet realize, but He is exposing it for what it is..not Him. Praise God! if we understand His rod is righteouness then it is within the context of right-relationship, right-relating. it is not a rod used to beat one under subjection or into obedience. Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered. He became man..think about that  for a minute or two or longer lol He knew what it was to be tempted far above anything anyone here has encountered.  the temptation to ` let this cup pass from me'. so strong was the temptation, He sweat great drops of blood. no one here has yet resisted their own will, going their own way, until  sweating great drops of blood.

now we have to stop and think on all this for a moment, or two or longer : ) He took the cup of the wrath of God for us. He became sin Who knew no sin. He became the curse. the wrath of God has been and is fully satisfied in the sacrificial Lamb. if we really know this to be True, intimately..we are lifted up into a Life that far surpasses the thoughts and ways of man(adam).

adam, the adamic nature runs deep...but deeper still runs the Blood of the Lamb Who has redeemed us unto God. 

let me share this, after first calling upon God, i knew nothing of a `sinners prayer', i knew nothing of scripture. Jesus came into my life and delivered me and gave me a new desire. i still did not understand it. two weeks later, after reading a book and this guy kept talking about Holy Spirit..all i knew is, `i want that!' i did not know He is a Person. so in my child like trust, i thought to myself..i will go pee, cuz i needed to lol, i will pray and ask for Holy Spirit and then i will go and tell my dad. and that is exactly what happened. an Endless River flowed within, over and upon..a Pure River of Love.  who knew?! who knew i could be SOOOOOOOOO Loved! i had never been told, i had never heard, up until that time. a short time later, reading about heaven in the scriptures..well it scared me because i didn't understand it and the things of this earth was all i had known. and then i seen Him..in all His Glory. all He is, totally enveloped me, totally filled me. i was in Him, He was in me..one.  His Love, Who He is, removed fear. 

that of course was not the end but the beginning. i eventually, as you shared Ken, became 'churched.'  i'll just say, there is alot of stinkin' thinkin'  that hides itself in the guise/masquerading of Holy Spirit or in His Name...looks like light and is not. i will say this too and this is not directed at anyone here in anyway, shape or form, but if it speaks to, then so be it, even as i will allow it to speak to me. brokeness does not have to proclaim itself broken. the fragrance of Christ will flow out of a broken vessel that will linger in the nostrils of those around. just as Mary broke the alabaster box and anointed Him for His burial and the fragrance filled the room. not that she knew that is what she was doing, she was pouring out her most costly thing upon Him. she was giving Him her present and future..all she had, all she was, is His. the Greater One had come and He was worthy of it all.

it is the surrendered will to the will of Father that manifests Christ..not the `stuff' we've been through. if however, in and through the `stuff' we have learned to be His Divine Expression through the surrendering our own will, humility...then Christ is being seen and heard, smelled, tasted, touched. these five are the equivalent of Grace, that being His Divine Expression within and through ones life.

blessings all,

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 2:24pm | IP Logged

Kathy, You said "Now we have to stop and think..." (2nd paragraph) Yes! To tag onto that, 2 very important points that real messes up our religion. 1. The crucifixion didn't kill Jesus. When He said "It is finished." He was referring to the completion of His consuming the cup of wrath, and the completion of the sacrifice. And it was neither of those that killed Him - He had to bear up under it so it could be fulfilled. Only after it was completed did He say "It is finished." Then He willing died and offered up His Spirit to the Father. 2. Within the sacrifice was the despising of the shame. Religion wants to keep us in shame: "I'm not worthy; I can never do enough; I I I , me me me." He took care of that! Shame teaches us that there still has to be a wrath to come because it is deserved. Adam and Eve didn't hide because they sinned. They hid because they were filled with shame. Jesus redeemed everything at the cross that was lost at the fall. Religion really gets that mixed up, and it twists His words to make it fit fleshly understanding. We don't have to live in shame anymore. Our shame - which He already took care of - feeds our need to put others under shame and condemnation. Sad. There are word to a song that keeps going through my mind "I don't have time to maintain these regrets (sorrow, shame) when I think about the way He love us! Oh! How He loves us!

In His Great Love,

Ken

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 2:43pm | IP Logged

Tina, With all due respect, I am not interested in changing God, His ways, or His counsel. I am not above thinking that I greatly misunderstand where you are coming from. But neither do I think that the prevalent church view that people have of the Wholeness of God has escaped the confines of religion and its fleshly dictates. The church continues to focus on the church, and is missing the reality of the Love of the Father and the Truth of His Kingdom.

In His Great Love,

Ken

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 4:32pm | IP Logged

Jesus did not dislike people, He Loves. He detests the thought producing ways of man(adamic nature). He will remove unrighteous/ unrighteousness, adhering to, loving their darkness rather than Light. it is not His wrath which does so, His wrath has been fully satisfied in Christ. yes He hates sin(pride of man, which is the going ones own way. what is right in his own eyes..etc.) the Good News is He nailed him(adam) to a tree. all the passions of adam..the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life has been crucified, no longer having dominion over.

Ananias and Sapphira were an example of His Love, His Goodness, His Mercy that far surpasses our own thinking. the Governing of God had come in Holy Spirit. He removed unbelief from propagating throughout the early church. 

Posted: 12/04/2009 at 10:39pm | IP Logged

i hear what you are saying Jeffrey, there may not be certain things i like about people, and taking it one step further, Love about people, but do Love them. the reason i say about is because it is sin and death He hates, not people. and yes, His Love, which is Who He is, is pure, holy, undefiled, unadulterated..there is no love like unto His Love. and yes, pride keeps us afar from Him and the reason a broken and contrite heart He will not despise because it is a heart that draws near to Him. He deeply feels the pain of loss of Love being reciprocated. it is our heart He is after and He does reveal the `why we do what we do.' 

Posted: 01/05/2010 at 9:03pm | IP Logged

• It should be noted that Saint John of Patmos makes no mention whatsover about saints coming back down from out of the clouds where they were supposedly raptured for seven years. This so-called factual event where believers disappear and later descend back down to the earth never mentioned anywhere in the Book of Revelation. Could the reason for this great omission be that it just doesn't exist?
  

Posted: 02/03/2010 at 8:49pm | IP Logged

yes as bro kevin has said I also do not believe in the rapture....... A catching away yes.. Will wll suffer persucation yes does Yahwha's wrath abide on His saints no...

Goint through tribulation does not mean wrath...