Posted: 11/17/2009 at 10:26am | IP Logged

God truly is moving His church to expressions in organic settings. Where there is one kingdom, one church and not many divided groups. When the church is just one expression of Christ in organic setings, then the larger gatherings will be for corporate praise and training times, as well as regionsl workings.

It is not as it should be now with larger gatherings still being expressions of a particular stream or movement and not fully brought into the oneness of the kingdom expressions God is wanting to bring forward.

The greatest hindrance to this expression is the hierarchal leadership that Frank talks about. Most streams are divided by leadership loyalties today. And with the LIE that you must be aligned with an apostle or under leadership.

When this lie is removed we will see freedom for people to organize and meet in an organic manner more conducive to the working of the Spirit through everyone, not just the leadership or special speaker.

Kris 

Posted: 12/10/2009 at 4:04pm | IP Logged

I like the comment about the potential of larger gatherings for corporate worship and training times and agree that the hierarchy is a great hindrance to this happening.

As we observe the ministry of Jesus in the New Testament, we also see him meeting wherever at the Father's leadership because He always did what the Father told him to do.  I do not even see where he held a regularly scheduled meeting.  He was "on" all the time, not just for a meeting.

As an observant Jew, Jesus was required to be at the Temple several times a year for the feasts.  The rest of the time, it seems He was on the road.

I believe if we could all respond so well to the inner voice of the Father, "church" would look a lot different and we would be following in Jesus' footsteps.  It's not just dedicating several hours a week to Him.  We should be available wherever He has us.

Steve Eastman

Posted: 01/20/2010 at 8:11pm | IP Logged

What a great discussion. Organic expressions, in as much as they represent the true manifest presence of God dwelling among His church in authentic, biblical community are wonderful. We need more of them. But if they represent a deliberate attempt to diminish the role of delegated spiritual authority and the proper role of structure and order within the church, they may not be as healthy as they appear.

Jeff Dwiggins invites you to read his recent essay, The Organic Church Movement – Reinvigorating the Church or Simply Going Rogue?, http://www.thebeankc.com/jeffs-blog/2010/1/3/the-organic-chu rch-movement-reinvigorating-the-church-or-sim.html , and express your feedback. The essay explores biblical themes of community, delegated spiritual authority, and church structure against the backdrop of organic church principles. Does the organic church movement represent a breath of fresh air to the body of Christ, or does "Reimagining Church" have its limits?

Mike Warren invites you to read his recent essay, Immature Fruit on the Organic Church Vine, http://www.christianciv.com/Immature_Organic_Fruit.pdf, and express your feedback. Is the organic church movement as expressed by the views and opinions of popular organic proponents Neal Cole and Frank Viola a worthy excursion to a better way of doing church, or more like a spontaneous college road trip that ends up lost in shallow theology and questionable foundations with no reliable map? 

Your comments and feedback on both essays are appreciated. God bless.

Posted: 01/21/2010 at 2:59am | IP Logged

Kris

You made some excellent points.  Many of us realize it is helpful to get input from multiple spiritual streams.  One thing that Frank Viola does well is historically and Biblical critique the origins of the predominant church system. 

I submit that this system would have to use an argument of Scriptural silence to support its legitimacy.  It should not be the starting place of our understanding.  Does that mean God cannot use it?  Not at all.  But it is evident God is throwing fresh light on an even older and purer revelation of church.  Let each be convinced what God is calling him to, but not dispute the clear lessons of the Bible and history.

Steve Eastman

Posted: 01/21/2010 at 6:39am | IP Logged

I see that there is a progression Father is bringing to the church. The organic church movement may not be perfect, but it IS what Father is doing in this hour. Lets not look back to the stumbing blocks of the past to right the wrongs, lets look to what Father is bringning to the church now.

I have faith that what it takes to inoculate against error and "wildfire" is in coming forth as the plans and purpose of Father for the bride are coming forth.

A women i know was deepl affected by the revivals of toronto, , Brownsville, and smithton. She went ack later and couldn't figure ut why she felt dead about them.

I told her, they were a step in a progression of what Father was doing, you CANNOT go back, it is like looking back when you have plowed. We cannof go back to chruch leadershp organized like the world system anymore.

It has ben so for 1700 years. Lets find out what Father's NEXT progression is and listen to His voice and do it. Not go back in fear to "services" and "heirarchies" that are dead religion ideals.

Kris

Posted: 01/21/2010 at 7:58am | IP Logged

Kris,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. The reason I made the distinction between layman and scholar when I describe myself has nothing to do with hierarchy or titles. I am simply pointing out that I'm a regular guy. I don't write books for a living. I don't have a PhD in Bible Theology, etc. I am merely a Christ follower make some observations on this movement.

I appreciate and agree with your focus on obedience to the Father. Appropriate structure and authority enhance obedience, not diminish it. Your reference of the "we all know church services are not meant to be tailored in such ... or are they?" line in my essay is a little misunderstood. That statement is meant to draw you in as a reader and get you thinking about the whole concept of an organic gathering. I ask the readers to make their own conclusions on that matter.

Your questions about "what is true delegated authority and what is its boundaries and function? And what is the proper role of structure?" are good questions. That is a good portion of what the essay is about. The Bible provides substantial direction to us in these areas, and that is laid out in the essay. Obviously, there is disagreement over these issues or we wouldn't be talking.

As far is living in the past, I am not saying anything to that effect, though I do believe we can learn from the past and see patterns in the diverse ways God has intervened. We can pick out the good and the bad, and act accordingly. I am continually amazed at the unexpected ways God shows up in our lives and communities.

Just a few miles down the road from me is the Intl. House of Prayer in Kansas City. I am always blessed every time I visit IHOP. God continues to manifest His presence there in glorious ways. I have a long history with that group, though I'm not a regular, and look forward to even more encounters with God in the future as I function within that community in addition to my local church community. The different streams of the body are a blessing.

To Steve's point, I agree that God can and will use organic churches. He uses many things, churches and movements to accomplish His purposes. But my hope and prayer is that this movement be grounded in true biblical foundations with respect for authority, both governmentally and structurally, so that the movement can be even more effective in discipleship and obtaining longevity in its church plants than it is today. I see a few things in this movement that give me pause for concern, a few others that don't seem quite right based on my interpretation of scripture, and I would be remiss not to point them out.  

Posted: 01/21/2010 at 8:21am | IP Logged

Jeff,

Thanx for the clarifications. You must realize that certain terms used are "standard" terms used for realities of a church system that in my opinion are detrimental and ANTI to what Father is trying to accomplish in this hour.

Now to sound like I am backtracking let me share that i am in FULL agreement that there is a lot of error and lack of direction in most Organic church expressions.  Much of this is due to offense of the old system and rejection of anything that looks like it. My concern is that we DO learn from the past and not make the same mistakes again. I love and appreciate IHOP as well. But i also know that they are on a journey as well and are not at the place we ALL are headed. I believe i to have been given a portion of understanding of where we are headed. That is why i responded. And i find the Organic church movement VERY resistant to accepting that Father has implemented apostolic, and prophetic, and teaching vessels etc. to equip the church.

But there is a MANNER of function that is of the Lord that I know Father has given me insight on. You may read the book online for FREE or purchase or purchase online the book that I have been mandated to write by Father on this very subject here: Breakingthemoldonline.net

By the way, the true church is made up of weak, normal guys who by the Spirit are made to walk in an authority and grace that the wise and strong cannot. These are the generals of the future, like stinky fisherman and tax collectors.

Kris 

Posted: 01/21/2010 at 9:03am | IP Logged

To use terms that are loaded myself, I must quote this verse that is GREATLY perverted in current church systems.

Here is the foundation of the church:

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

This is scary for many because what is considered an apostle or prophet today is a far cry from the reality of What Father is bringing forth.

The church is not built on scripture principles, it is built upon the person of Jesus Christ and the PEOPLE who are apostles and prophets. This is the structure of the temple, the body, the dwelling place of God. 

The structure is a family, a temple, a body, a city/bride. So when you tell me the organic church needs structure I agree!!! But how god is building it  is not by making a thing that has a CEO authority and scripture backed bylaws. He is building an expression of the person of Christ Jesus. With this foundation we can begin to build. That is why I cringe at and oppose the call to structure and authority because for MANY if not most that is a call to deadness and hindrance. I am sorry if i misread your point.

NOW, how prophets, apostles, and elders (which these two are also part of) function? The true manner they are to function is rare in this day, and you will not see it fully manifest in an organized church setting.

You just hit a topic i have been given authority by Father to bring to bear in the church. I am very concerned about the old leaven coming in and poisoning the thing Father is doing, even if it is in an infant and immature stage.

Kris

Posted: 01/21/2010 at 10:27am | IP Logged

Father has finally gotten a small group of individuals who have turned away from the dead religion of the past. They have rejected what has been the most devastating thing to the church, False leadership, and false structure based on the wisdom of men.

Rejoice in this. but He did not bring his people out of Egypt to be brought into slavery again. He is now bringing them into the promised land of rest with Christ as the captain of the host. A new day with a new way.

In a way the example and work of apostles and prophets is equipping and enabling the body to fulfill it's role as kings and priests unto our God. The prophetic role is priestly in nature and the apostolic is kingly in nature.

Many have taken apotolic and prphetic emphasis and the anointing with them and made themselves the cornerstone and bringing dependency of other to themsleves in the church rather then making Christ the cornerstone and the one depended upon! But these emphasis's are not to be a place of dependency or lordship in the Church, they are to be enabling others to enter fully into their places of being both kingly and priestly in their place in Christ. Being able to walk in the nature (priestly) and authority (kingly) of Christ.

There are SOME who do this varying degrees.

Their Job CEASES when people begin to function filled with the nature and expressing the authority of Christ! Christ in me the hope of Glory.

What is God building in the church into? He is building the fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ in His people; an expression of His person.

what is the structure of the Church? A body, a Temple, a Bride, and expression of the fullness of Christ. By the way i did not read Frank Violas or anyone elses book on these subjects. I was and organic-organic church person before it became popular to be organci

Posted: 01/21/2010 at 12:59pm | IP Logged

Thanx for your posting Jeff

This has given me unction to write an article that speaks to this point of an apostolic organic church, one with authority and structure...lol

Kris

Posted: 01/22/2010 at 8:14am | IP Logged

I had a very signifigant dream last night i will call "Remembering who I am"

In this dream i seem to be a young mand just finding my way in life. i am away from home and while in a parking lot I am run into by a man in his car. He is nice enough and i end up going to his home and having a relationship with His girlfriend.

While the man acts nice toward me ,soon He and a friend are attacking me with a tire irons, i pick one up as well and we begin to fight in the street. I know then that i have lost the battle and that i will recive a serious head injury.

Waking up in the street

It has been fifteen years now.  i have amnesia and brain damage from the attack and have the mind and vocabulary of a 3 year old and a am under the supervision of a legal guardian to take care of me.

I am in the street and suddenly my brain connects and I have all my faculties back and the understanding of the predicament i am in. I have lost contact with my family as i was away from home in the accident and was taken care of by a legal guardian. My family does not know where i have been in the last fifteen years.

I tell the lady taking care of me, "Vicky is my mom, call her." I still speak with slurred spech of mental incompetance, but i know I can speak clearly if I try. The lady is shocked that I put that many words together, but ignores my plea as she has babysat me for years and knows i am not capable of taking care of myself. i woke up and was awed by the dream and prayed. I went back to sleep.

Part III talking clearly.

In this part I am speaking to her in slurred speak then finally i get my ability to speak clearly focused and begin to tell her to her suprise that i am normal now. She still hesitates to belive , bu the fact is, i don't need a leagl guadian to be dependant upon anymore, I am back to being the mature person who could forge His own way in life.

i will post the interpretation later

Posted: 01/22/2010 at 12:29pm | IP Logged

Dream "REMEMBERING WHO I AM" When i pondered this dream in bewilderment, Father explained who the young man in the dream is "It's the Church" He said.

Part I  OVERCOME BY THE WORLD

In this dream I seem to be a young man just finding my way in life. I am away from home on a trip and while driving in a parking lot I am run into by a man in his car.

This is the early church as it began it's journey and beginning to enter maturity. The car I am driving has to do with the purpose of the church and the other car is the world and it's purposes, which "collides" with the church. The parking lot represents the purpose not going forward but being "parked" (unused).

He is nice enough and I end up going to his home and having a relationship with His girlfriend.While the man acts nice toward me, soon He and a friend are attacking me with a tire irons, I pick one up as well and we begin to fight in the street. I know then that I have lost the battle and that I will receive a serious head injury.

This represent the way in which the early church fell into friendship with the world and began "loving" the things (girlfriend) of the world. Because of this compromise, the world and the devil (the friend) attack the church with it's weapons, The church ALSO takes up the weapons of the world and is overcome because of it's infidelity and using the weapons of the world.(Constantine) The fight is in the street and outside of the protection of the household of faith.

Part II WAKING UP IN THE STREET

It has been fifteen years now.  I have amnesia and brain damage from the attack and have the mind and vocabulary of a 3 year old and a am under the supervision of a legal guardian to take care of me.

Years a have passed and because of the devastating damage done to the church it has forgotten who it is, becoming as a dependent as an orphan child of whom legal guardians (the law, regulations and hierarchy) now take care of it. This is the institutional church system today.

I am in the street and suddenly my brain connects and I have all my faculties back and the understanding of the predicament I am in. I have lost contact with my family as I was away from home in the accident and my family could not be found and was taken care of by a legal guardian.

Out on the street and not in the home of the legal guardian is where the healing takes place. The church remembers again outside of the walls of religion who it is, it remembers the "Family" it was part of separated from and has been under the care of the "legal guardian" those whose relationship is position of being depended upon, law and hierarchy. 

I tell the lady taking care of me, "Vicky is my mom, call her." I still speak with slurred speech of mental incompetence, but i know I can speak clearly if I try. The lady is shocked that I put that many words together, but ignores my plea as she has babysat me for years and knows i am not capable of taking care of myself. i woke up and was awed by the dream and prayed. I went back to sleep.

Vicky is short for Victory or conqueror. After being a child and unable to take of itself the church is waking up to the fact that is is a conqueror and victorious church. The caretaker (old Guard)is not used to such life and assurance in the immature orphan and still treat the church as incapable of maturity or taking care of itself.

Part III   TALKING CLEARLY 

In this part I am speaking to the legal guardian in slurred speech then finally i get my ability to speak clearly focused and begin to tell her to her surprise that I am normal now. She still does not want to believe and thinks I need her help, but the fact is, I don't need a legal guardian to be dependent upon anymore, I am back to being the mature person who could can make their own decisions.

The dream ends with the church finally clearly expressing its heart in maturity and it's ability to make it's own decisions. The legal guardian or (old Guard) still thinks the church needs to be ruled over with regulation with dependency upon them and come "under" it's supervision.

Posted: 01/23/2010 at 8:15am | IP Logged

Kriston Couchey wrote:

Quote: Dream "REMEMBERING WHO I AM" When i pondered this dream in bewilderment, Father explained who the young man in the dream is "It's the Church" He said. Part I  OVERCOME BY THE WORLD In this dream I seem to be a young man just finding my way in life. I am away from home on a trip and while driving in a parking lot I am run into by a man in his car. This is the early church as it began it's journey and beginning to enter maturity. The car I am driving has to do with the purpose of the church and the other car is the world and it's purposes, which "collides" with the church. The parking lot represents the purpose not going forward but being "parked" (unused). He is nice enough and I end up going to his home and having a relationship with His girlfriend.While the man acts nice toward me, soon He and a friend are attacking me with a tire irons, I pick one up as well and we begin to fight in the street. I know then that I have lost the battle and that I will receive a serious head injury. This represent the way in which the early church fell into friendship with the world and began "loving" the things (girlfriend) of the world. Because of this compromise, the world and the devil (the friend) attack the church with it's weapons, The church ALSO takes up the weapons of the world and is overcome because of it's infidelity and using the weapons of the world.(Constantine) The fight is in the street and outside of the protection of the household of faith. Part II WAKING UP IN THE STREET It has been fifteen years now.  I have amnesia and brain damage from the attack and have the mind and vocabulary of a 3 year old and a am under the supervision of a legal guardian to take care of me. Years a have passed and because of the devastating damage done to the church it has forgotten who it is, becoming as a dependent as an orphan child of whom legal guardians (the law, regulations and hierarchy) now take care of it. This is the institutional church system today. I am in the street and suddenly my brain connects and I have all my faculties back and the understanding of the predicament I am in. I have lost contact with my family as I was away from home in the accident and my family could not be found and was taken care of by a legal guardian. Out on the street and not in the home of the legal guardian is where the healing takes place. The church remembers again outside of the walls of religion who it is, it remembers the "Family" it was part of separated from and has been under the care of the "legal guardian" those whose relationship is position of being depended upon, law and hierarchy.  I tell the lady taking care of me, "Vicky is my mom, call her." I still speak with slurred speech of mental incompetence, but i know I can speak clearly if I try. The lady is shocked that I put that many words together, but ignores my plea as she has babysat me for years and knows i am not capable of taking care of myself. i woke up and was awed by the dream and prayed. I went back to sleep. Vicky is short for Victory or conqueror. After being a child and unable to take of itself the church is waking up to the fact that is is a conqueror and victorious church. The caretaker (old Guard)is not used to such life and assurance in the immature orphan and still treat the church as incapable of maturity or taking care of itself. Part III   TALKING CLEARLY  In this part I am speaking to the legal guardian in slurred speech then finally i get my ability to speak clearly focused and begin to tell her to her surprise that I am normal now. She still does not want to believe and thinks I need her help, but the fact is, I don't need a legal guardian to be dependent upon anymore, I am back to being the mature person who could can make their own decisions. The dream ends with the church finally clearly expressing its heart in maturity and it's ability to make it's own decisions. The legal guardian or (old Guard) still thinks the church needs to be ruled over with regulation with dependency upon them and come "under" it's supervision.

The prophetically gifted apostle is speaking clearly in this word from God. Even the spiritually simple child can hear the voice of our Lord in this word.

Praise God Almighty for His glorious work! THE TRUE CHURCH IS AWAKENING!

Thank you Kriston for your faithfulness in our Lord. The sons of God are manifest.

Ron