Posted: 02/17/2009 at 6:29pm | IP Logged

Julie, Thank you for posting this informative and thought-provoking article written by an obvious Warren groupie. While I have the utmost respect for Rev Warren and his purpose-driven viewpoint, I do take issue with a few points of Mr. Norris' all-encompassing yet myopic viewpoint of Rev Warren's prayer. Perhaps the most subversive moment was when President Obama chose not to join in the recitation of the Lord's Prayer. That the newly installed leader of the free world who says he is a Christian, chooses not to participate in a defining moment of the Inauguration, led by someone he specifically chose for this moment, is strangely ironic at the very least. The author's view of what was transpiring during the invocation and his interpretations of the Lord's Prayer while interesting, leave me unwilling to crown Rev Warren as "a unifying post-Christian-right figure". That Rev Warren is a well-credentialed Christian leader who rose to capture this moment is not my point for debate. I am troubled, however, that in so doing he has set himself up (with the help of "driven" supporters) to be "a" if not "the" spokesman for all of American Christendom. This is not only an unenviable and difficult position, it is also an impossible one to fulfill, no matter how driven he is. Not to speak negatively of Rev Warren, it is the heart condition of the American Church that is driven to idol worship. I will ratchet up my prayers for Rev Warren. By the way, purpose driven prayers are wonderful. How much more effective they could be were they person driven (Jesus) remains to be seen. After all, our faith should be about who, not how.

Posted: 02/19/2009 at 4:33am | IP Logged

Julie, Thank you for sharing your heart; I was deeply touched! I have no arguments. Point by point, you share much of what is in my heart. In my rush to point out what I believe to be a weakness in our curent religious system, I fear I came across as condemning and judgmental. This certainly was not my intent. For this, I apologize and ask your forgiveness, and others I may have offended.

To walk in unconditional love and be Jesus to evryone we meet should be the aim of every believer. As I stated, I deeply respect Rev Warren and his work. I am concerned, though that so many believers perpetuate our current "religious system" that places so much emphasis on one person or one person's ministry. I have my own heroes of the faith. They are my heroes because they pointed me to Jesus, not themselves or their ministry. I believe that it is also the heart and intent of Rev Warren to point people to Jesus. That he was chosen for this singular moment was no coincidence; I applaud him and rejoice with and for him. I also rejoice for the many nameless intercessors who prepared the way for this moment. I rejoice that the Name of Jesus was spoken with boldness and in many languages. I rejoice that Jesus was faithfully represented by Rev Warren.

It is not Rev Warren's shortcoming that he and his ministry, like others, are idolized. My heart aches that so much of the body of Christ depends upon others to be their standard bearer. How many believers will never attain what God has intended for them because because they are satisfied to settle in a camp? We must all walk in the fullness God has for us individually. We are often directed in this by particular people or ministries. But we are a body. True unity in the body cannot be attained if we continue to be "of Paul" or of "Appollus". 

I often have my grace chain yanked, and spend much time on my face repenting for logs and other impurities. My prayer is this (for myself and others): that my zeal for the Lord be transformed into the zeal of the Lord and that I represent Him, not my version of Him. My faith must be about who, not how.

Thank you again for sharing. May you walk in all the fullness of Christ that is yours! In Him, Ken

Posted: 02/19/2009 at 11:26am | IP Logged

Isaiah 58 (Amplified Bible)

    ²Yet they seek, inquire for, and require Me daily and delight [externally] to know My ways, as [if they were in reality] a nation that did righteousness and forsook not the ordinance of their God. They ask of Me righteous judgments, they delight to draw near to God [in visible ways].

    ³Why have we fasted, they say, and You do not see it? Why have we afflicted ourselves, and You take no knowledge [of it]? Behold [O Israel], on the day of your fast [when you should be grieving for your sins], you find profit in your business, and [instead of stopping all work, as the law implies you and your workmen should do] you extort from your hired servants a full amount of labor.^(A)

    ⁴[The facts are that] you fast only for strife and debate and to smite with the fist of wickedness. Fasting as you do today will not cause your voice to be heard on high.

    ⁵Is such a fast as yours what I have chosen, a day for a man to humble himself with sorrow in his soul? [Is true fasting merely mechanical?] Is it only to bow down his head like a bulrush and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him [to indicate a condition of heart that he does not have]? Will you call this a fast and an acceptable day to the Lord?

    ⁶[Rather] is not this the fast that I have chosen: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every [enslaving] yoke?^(B)

    ⁷Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house--when you see the naked, that you cover him, and that you hide not yourself from [the needs of] your own flesh and blood?

    ⁸Then shall your light break forth like the morning, and your healing (your restoration and the power of a new life) shall spring forth speedily; your righteousness (your rightness, your justice, and your right relationship with God) shall go before you [conducting you to peace and prosperity], and the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.^(C)

    ⁹Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer; you shall cry, and He will say, Here I am. If you take away from your midst yokes of oppression [wherever you find them], the finger pointed in scorn [toward the oppressed or the godly], and every form of false, harsh, unjust, and wicked speaking,^(D)

    ¹⁰And if you pour out that with which you sustain your own life for the hungry and satisfy the need of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in darkness, and your obscurity and gloom become like the noonday.

    ¹¹And the Lord shall guide you continually and satisfy you in drought and in dry places and make strong your bones. And you shall be like a watered garden and like a spring of water whose waters fail not.

    ¹²And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt; you shall raise up the foundations of [buildings that have laid waste for] many generations; and you shall be called Repairer of the Breach, Restorer of Streets to Dwell In.

    ¹³If you turn away your foot from [traveling unduly on] the Sabbath, from doing your own pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a [spiritual] delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable, and honor Him and it, not going your own way or seeking or finding your own pleasure or speaking with your own [idle] words,

    ¹⁴Then will you delight yourself in the Lord, and I will make you to ride on the high places of the earth, and I will feed you with the heritage [promised for you] of Jacob your father; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.^(E)

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Daniel 9

    ²In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the books the number of years which, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass by before the desolations [which had been] pronounced on Jerusalem should end; and it was seventy years.^(A)

    ³And I set my face to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting and sackcloth and ashes;

    ⁴And I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, Who keeps covenant, mercy, and loving-kindness with those who love Him and keep His commandments,

    ⁵We (the church) have sinned and dealt perversely and done wickedly and have rebelled, turning aside from Your commandments and ordinances.

    ⁶Neither have we (the church) listened to and heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our princes and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.

    ⁷O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us (the church) confusion and shame of face, as at this day--to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, to those who are near and those who are far off, through all the countries to which You have driven them because of the [treacherous] trespass which they have committed against You.

    ⁸O Lord, to us (the church) belong confusion and shame of face--to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers--because we have sinned against You.

    ⁹To the Lord our God belong mercy and loving-kindness and forgiveness, for we (the church) have rebelled against Him;

    ¹⁰And we have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in His laws which He set before us (the church) through His servants the prophets.

    ¹¹Yes, all Israel (the church) has transgressed Your law, even turning aside that they might not obey Your voice. Therefore the curse has been poured out on us (the church) and the oath that is written in the Law of Moses the servant of God, because we(the church) have sinned against Him.^(B)

    ¹²And He has carried out intact His [threatening] words which He threatened against us (the church) and against our judges [the kings, princes, and rulers generally] who ruled us, and He has brought upon us (the church) a great evil; for under the whole heavens there has not been done before [anything so dreadful] as [He has caused to be] done against Jerusalem.

    ¹³Just as it is written in the Law of Moses as to all this evil [that would surely come upon transgressors], so it has come upon us.(the church) Yet we (the church) have not earnestly begged for forgiveness and entreated the favor of the Lord our God, that we (the church) might turn from our iniquities and have understanding and become wise in Your truth.^(C)

    ¹⁴Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity (evil) and has brought it upon us,(the church) for the Lord our God is [uncompromisingly] righteous and rigidly just in all His works which He does [keeping His word]; and we (the church) have not obeyed His voice.

    ¹⁵And now, O Lord our God, Who brought Your people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and secured Yourself renown and a name as at this day, we (the church) have sinned, we (the church) have done wickedly!

    ¹⁶O Lord, according to all Your rightness and justice, I beseech You, let Your anger and Your wrath be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. Because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach and a byword to all who are around about us (the church).

    ¹⁷Now therefore, O our God, listen to and heed the prayer of Your servant ^[a][Daniel] and his supplications, and for Your own sake cause Your face to shine upon Your sanctuary which is desolate.

    ¹⁸O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and look at our desolations and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You for our own righteousness and justice, but for Your great mercy and loving-kindness.

    ¹⁹O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, give heed and act! Do not delay, for Your own sake, O my God, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name.

    ²⁰While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God--

    ²¹Yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the former vision, being caused to fly swiftly, came near to me and touched me about the time of the evening sacrifice.^(D)

    ²²He instructed me and made me understand; he talked with me and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give you skill and wisdom and understanding.

    ²³At the beginning of your prayers, the word [giving an answer] went forth, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved. Therefore consider the matter and understand the vision.

    ²⁴Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] are decreed upon your people and upon your holy city [Jerusalem], to finish and put an end to transgression, to seal up and make full the measure of sin, to purge away and make expiation and reconciliation for sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness (permanent moral and spiritual rectitude in every area and relation) to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and to anoint a Holy of Holies.

    ²⁵Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until [the coming of] the Anointed One, a Prince, shall be seven weeks [of years] and sixty-two weeks [of years]; it shall be built again with [city] square and moat, but in troublous times.

    ²⁶And after the sixty-two weeks [of years] shall the Anointed One be cut off or killed and shall have nothing [and no one] belonging to [and defending] Him. And the people of the [other] prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood; and even to the end there shall be war, and desolations are decreed.^(E)

    ²⁷And he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week [seven years]. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and offering to cease [for the remaining three and one-half years]; and upon the wing or pinnacle of abominations [shall come] one who makes desolate, until the full determined end is poured out on the desolator.

Posted: 02/19/2009 at 11:27am | IP Logged

The discernment of deception and love toward those who are deceived, or judgement of a matter and the judgement of a person are totally two different matters. Even the pagans know this and practice it; but I seldom I witnessed in circles of Christian. To tell Paul and Peter, or Jesus stop rebuke the wicked hearts of the leaders for the day is to muzzle the ox and deny their life in the Lord.

To pray or to rebuke are all helpful if done in the right place God gives one; but the discernmen or judgement by God should be the same and is not to be blurred or confused. And this very thing will be delivered by the servants of God, if not many, then one, hoepfully... However, there will be many...Many are eager to see this nation to be saved, that is a wrong and invalid desire, we need to see to it that first and foremost that "the saved" be saved in this nation at this confusing and diring moment.

To praise a truth and receive a blessing by the defiled does not make us defiled; nor do we dishonor or un-love a person by disagreement with him.

I do not agree with my old brother in many things, but I love him. It is different, however, if he chooses to stand up for or in deception and use his subtle way to infiltrate my love unto my father or the well being of my father or the family. I will rebuke him and will continue to rebuke him till he yield and confess he is wrong.

My old brother has the heart to yield, I know he does, because his love toward his father, also my father;as he did when I was pretty young again and again-I rebuke him when he treated badly his wife; I rebuked him when he ignored the well-being of his son; I rebuked him when he made selfish decisions in the love of money and was unwilling to sacrifice for the family. I was young; not mentioned to be younger, 9 years younger...

I spoke for my father when it was not fit for him to speak concerning certain matters.

When one stands for something bigger than himself, he is open to severe judgement and careful examination, which is necessary and needful.

It is the job of a Prophet and the duty of a Watchman of God to judge such personalities as above mentioned. Interestingly they are open to it themselves when they choose to serve at the choice of others or entitled themselves to serve in a role of this world in the Name of my Father.

It is the deceived or hypcritical ones that makes Christianity here ill and sick, not the boldness and courage of God's holy servants.

If God is going touch the aboved mentioned personalities, good. If not, let those who hears God continue to judge them till they repent into all righteousness, or at least dare not to falsely use the Name of God.

To tell John the Baptist to stop speaking against Herold is wrong, for Herold is not merely a man. He is a representation of something ungodly...To only praise Constantin (?) at his day or today is wrong, for he introduced defilement into God's House.

Humanistic symapthy is sickly, esp. before those who are trying to be a herold of humanism.

I am a sinner and might in all possibility continue to sin, but that can't take away my voice speaking for God. 

Dear ones, speak it till man's "Reverent Titles" can not wrap up their wicked or deceived hearts, if indeed you are a voice of the Most High God.