Posted: 06/09/2009 at 5:40pm | IP Logged

Well said Loren. Amen and Amen.

Birth pangs according to God's time.Not this world's...

Posted: 06/09/2009 at 7:43pm | IP Logged

Loren,

would you please explain what you mean by prophetic `movement.'

thank you : )

Posted: 06/09/2009 at 9:14pm | IP Logged

thanks Loren, yes that helps. In that regards then, wouldn't it be a good thing for it to die out? in other words, the motives of ones heart must be purified that the pure stream flow. if it's just the `thing' everyone wants to get in on..there would be a missing it big time then. i think a difference may be, the church is to be His prophetic expression in earth rather than everyone wanting to jump on the bandwagon, so to speak, as Denise shared.

 one more question..and i probably need to read the book hah!..but don't you think it is of far more value coming to know what it is in being a son first, foremost and above all..and then these things flow supernaturally naturally and the stream is then purified? and so the priority or value of relationship has been replaced in some ways by way of placing the gifts or movement first.

Posted: 06/09/2009 at 10:32pm | IP Logged

"Somewhere in the early pages I state the being a prophetic church does NOT mean that everybody in it goes around prophesying, but that it bears the marks of Jeremiah's calling, 1:10, "See, I have appointed you this day over the nations and over the kingdoms, To pluck up and to break down, To destroy and to overthrow, To build and to plant." In other words, by its very existence and by the way it functions in the Lord, it causes change in the world around it, uprooting what is not God and planting what is. "

yes! and that comes from being a son of the Father. a son will make known the rule of the King of the Kingdom from which they live and are sent from. so when i hear a call to come into maturity or purifying the prophetic stream, it is a calling to come into knowing who we are as His sons and living and walking as such.

Denise, i was a babe in the early 80's having given my life to Him in 1979. but in that short period of time, through the 80's i did see some of the good, the bad and the ugly as they say : )  " He functioned rather well and appropriate for the situation and the need." yes! He was the Son of His Father and my desire is nothing more than that of representing Him in earth as His daughter. i mean if they see me, which is also us..they should see Him because that is who we are..sons/daughters of God our Father. if the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy, then is that not that of being the Son of God/ a son of God? Son of the Father which He said, I and the Father are One and we as Loren shared, are to come into that same intimate relationship of oneness and so His witness is seen and heard in and through a life lived as Father's son/daughter.

i said one more question but here came another lol : )) but this is really good!

if you receive this response via email, i edited the way in which i said the last portion.

thanks!

Posted: 06/10/2009 at 10:01am | IP Logged

Hi all...haven't posted for quite a while.

I have often wondered why it is taught that man will preach the gospel to the whole world.  The scripture passage that is often used for this statement does not mention people it simply says "this gospel must be preached in the whole world and then the end will come".  The gospel does not have to be preached by men.  Angels can preach it, God can preach it, animals can preach it (should God will it), the heavens can preach it...etc.

And also, the greatest spread of the gospel has always been in tumultous times, not times of peace.  It was persecution, troubled times in the Roman government, etc. that facilitated the spread of the gospel throughout Europe.  In times of peace the church rests on its "laurels" as it has done so much in the last few decades.

We may not see the apocalypse anytime soon, but, in my own opinion, it won't be an organized "church system" that spreads the gospel but individuals endued with power in the midst of perilous times that bring the gospel to the world.  God may even miracously transport a few people to the uttermost ends of the earth to do some preaching to hidden peoples.

Make no mistake about this... it won't be men who organize and facilitate the preaching of the gospel to the world...but God along with a people who want nothing but Him.  And if that takes major disasters to make it happen...then God will not withhold those disasters.  It is also my opinion that people will not be willing to hear the gospel until these "disasters" occur.

Sherry Mason

Posted: 06/10/2009 at 10:57am | IP Logged

Well...Paul would never even have been on the road if it had not been a time of great persecution (he being one of those that was a primary player in the persecution).  And without that persecution and turmoil...what would have happened?  Maybe we can only speculate.

However...again...I reiterate...Jesus did not say that it would be men who would bring that gospel to the whole world and every nation...no one talked about avoiding shouldering our responsibility.  I personally said in my comment that in my opinion it would be individuals enbued with power who would do the preaching and not any kind of organized church. 

I have to disagree with you...it does not take an organization or times of peace to spread the gospel.  It takes only those willing to give everything and lay down their lives. 

What we are coming into is (again in my opinion) completely different from what occured in the first church.  We cannot look for the same thing to happen in the same way.

And also, we have had to 2000 years to accomplish the "mandate" you mentioned...it hasn't happened yet...so what needs to occur for that to happen?  I think we need to beware of "preaching" that everything must stay the same in order to accomplish our mission lest we be found to be preaching "peace....peace" and have sudden destruction come upon us.

I am not an advocate of all the "survivalist" preparation stuff.  I don't have the means to prepare.  But I do believe great disaster is coming.  And it will hit the organized structure of the church system with an impact that will leave disarray and destruction...I cannot begin to imagine what kind of storm could cause that destruction.  I saw the storm coming and I saw it hit in a vision back in 1987.  I have never forgotten what I saw.

The true preparation is that of keeping my eyes, my heart, my mind set on Him.

Sherry Mason

Posted: 06/10/2009 at 2:01pm | IP Logged

So true, sister Kathy.

It is coming a time when our Father will restore unto us the culture of His Household and the Kingdom of His Son.

We will then really learn how to love and what to love as members of His family on earth...This love will make others know that we are His disciples.

There are those endlessly pursue agreement of the mind, but their heart is far from willingness to yield to one another.

A time has come that we be seperated from such for a while.

Noah would have waited for all his life if God did not urged him and his to come into the ark. He would have died for them. Indeed, what pain and sorrow when he saw out of the ark what was flooded! I believe, the same was the feelings of Moses looking aross Jordan the Promised Land on Mount Nebo, the Israelite wailing over the burning down of their holy city as they were taken captive to Babylon, Jesus watching over Jerusalem on Mount Olive...

It should be the hearts of His remenants of this day towards what we have treasured, honored and prided with, especially those who refused to move on. Indeed, how glorious in our eyes are the saints who had sacrificed much for the developmemt, establishment and preservation of the traditions in the west.

Posted: 06/10/2009 at 2:04pm | IP Logged

hello Sherry and Loren,

something that a couple of others and myself have discussed a bit is Mal.4:5-6, which i think Ron's article speaks into as well..Kingdom relational connection groups, which the church you pastor really is Loren.

but to go back to Mal. 4:5-6 and in sharing with a couple of others, i had sensed such a desensitizing taking place, a withdrawing from, which was a grieving in my heart. not because of doctrines of men or traditions or even as one might say of between the house of Saul and the house of David.  it was more of like as a some teens may do in withdrawing from those who are older with a `we can't relate or you just don't understand' mentality/mindset.

so when Mark( i don't think he'll mind my saying who shared this passage of scripture with me) it all just came together.

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and dreadful day of the Lord: and he will turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

i think in some ways or in part, because of unhealed wounds inflicted by the institutional type church, there has been a fear and a not understanding that He has called us to relate in this way. there are true fathers in the faith, there are true fathers who pass down or give of their heritage to the children and the children receiving ( inheriting) that which is passed down from their fathers, the childrens heart is turned toward the father in respect and honoring. Just as in Elijah and Elisha..it was a spiritual father son relationship.

a church that i was part of for a very long time, i left, not because of any hurt or wounding..they are actually dear to my heart to this day, it was simply time to leave. in all honesty, the pastor did not have a fathers heart...who desires the best for his children and desires to see them do well and excel in whatever is within them and feeds into them, releasing them into their purpose as a son of God.

The Lord turned Elijha's heart toward Elisha and Elisha's heart toward Elijah.   1 Kings19, At Mt. Horeb, the place of desolation, The Lord asks Elijah, What are you doing here?? Alone? Twice, Elijah responds, `I am the only one left…’ Had he forgotten he had a servant who stood by him as well? The servant didn’t leave Elijah, Elijah left his servant. The Lord reminds him He has others as well who are serving Him and sets him on his way out of their and into relationship with Elisha.  a father and son relationship grew. Vertically born, horizontally flowed..having servant hearts one toward another and giving to honoring..although Elijah may have not been the easiest personality to hang around! lol  we need understand they were both meant for good in one anothers life which we get a glimpse of a spiritual structual family, the household of God, the household of faith.

As we begin to get a glimpse of being the family of God, one, walls of separation will come down. division will be triumphed over by unity, our union and a lost and dying world will know( experientially) the kingdom of God is here.

blessings,

Posted: 06/10/2009 at 7:18pm | IP Logged

Re: Prophetic Movement

Then Moses said to him, "Are you zealous for my sake? Oh, that all the Lord 's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!" 3

Posted: 06/10/2009 at 8:34pm | IP Logged

yes Denise, i was not speaking of a cookie cutter expression : ) even as there is individuals within family who have various ways of expression, Fathers sons are individual and with unique expression of Himself. it is not a matter of where ..it can be anywhere! : ) as you said, it's a matter/issue of the heart.

Reggie, yes, it's very much a servant heart relationship that honors one another. I also agree, it is very revelant and essential for today..Mal.4:5-6 personally, i believe we must have a turning/repenting of the `independent spirit' which i will only speak as for the American church..as a whole, yet not all, have lived out of and so there is a lawlessness abounding. He is calling out to return, turn our hearts..fathers to the children and children to the fathers which demonstrates our Father and His Son Jesus.

blessings,

okay, i went to edit the way in which i spelled relevant..spelling revelant..but it just popped right off and wouldn't let me lol and may just be a good typo..meaning we need a revelation of His Household..family : )

Posted: 06/11/2009 at 10:08am | IP Logged

Denise and Kathy, both really good points.

I wish to clarify that when I spoke of the religious system (organized structure) it was not meant to be a blanket statement covering every organization or fellowship.  It is about an ineffectual system that has squelched the works of God and that, in itself, is not promoting but rather hindering the advancement of the Kingdom of God.  The things I have said are not out of my own personal issues but rather what I have been shown by the Lord repeatedly concerning the above.  I do not care to appoint myself as a "correcter" of the Body of Christ...I can only tell what I have seen and heard.  I have seen destruction and I have seen the glory of God...both.  God sometimes destroys so that He may build.

On another note: My heart has long been to provide food, housing, clothing, care and salvation for any who need it.  Any organization that accomplishes the above gets kudos from me.

Posted: 06/11/2009 at 12:51pm | IP Logged

The Lord has shown me something about many structures that are in place. There are those that definitely are dead and dying and will not remain. there are others that are praparing and trianing people but themselves are not entering into the fullness of this day as of yet.

My mistake in the past has been to lump all groups not walking in the light as I have come to see it as disobedient. I don't see it that way anymore. I was at a small charismatic church that was very hungry for God and the manifestation of the kingdom. But I was caught off guard by the "religious mindset questions" of innocent people who knew no better then to judge me by the standards of thier apostolic order.  

The Lord gave me a dream that night where I was going into this school and they judged me as unfit to be part of the classes of training and to graduate from thier school. Then I realized, I already have a diploma, I do not belong in school to learn what I already know.

The Lord showed me that these were just as fervant for him, but not at the place I was. In many ways they judged me because I was not looking like a good Christain to them when in fact I had been freed from many of the binding mindsets and judgment they had not been freed from yet. 

In many ways I had completed the training they were undergoing, and it was important that I deal with them on the level they were. I went to see a speaker at that place later in the week and came with a mindset to meet them where they were and was able to share some kingdom realities with a the pastor.

Many movements today are the training phase to bring people higher and closer to God's goal of complete freedom in Christ. Yet there is a GREAT mindset change that these instituions themselves will go through that will change everything about trianing in the future. This change has been slow in coming, but we are about to take a quantam leap.

The power and presence of God and his servants bringing the message of the kingdom in fullness will signal the end of the hindrances in many congregations. There is a lot of unseen pride in some of these institutions wrapped in leadership's need to be in control, as much as they don't believe they are controlling, but the Lord is coming to take control.

Kris

Posted: 06/11/2009 at 1:51pm | IP Logged

I do not want to get too off topic, but to just address the issue of where current streams are on the kingdom leadership issue. this article by ron addresses the issue of Godly church streams that are still mired in old expressions of leadership. This does NOT count them out or mean thay are going to be left out of what god is doing.  

Posted: 06/11/2009 at 3:31pm | IP Logged

This dream as written below 5 years ago, upon reading it again noticed it as the season *  we are now in …

It was Sunday, not a cloud in the sky …

In the dream I was at a church gathering inside a shopping mall. The gathering was flippant about the seriousness of the application of ministry. The gathering was not formal (God did not tell them to meet) meeting. A minister was running around exited but wasn’t worried about the correct application of the gifts. Philip my cousin was there also. After the meeting had ended, people started to mill around outside – idleness, laughter and flippancy was the attitude.

I looked towards the left and saw about fifty yards away what appeared to be a strong dust devil kicking up dirt and debris. Phil was walking away and I turned to him and said, “Look at that!” 

What I thought was a dust devil turned into a tornado heading right for us. As I watched the growing destruction the tornado turned into a pillar, tower like structure made of stones. I heard the Lord say, “This is what the tornado is.”

I said, “Let’s go inside the mall, it won’t tear through the structure!”

Philip and I went inside and the tornado was then upon the shopping mall – it started to shred the structure, debris was flying everywhere, people started screaming. We then ran outside to get away and the tornado started to pick up speed.

Then Phil and I were in a car driving – In the dream I was telling him what the Lord showed me and was relaying it to him. ‘The pillar was the living stones, and the living stones the proper ministry in all its proper power. God showed me that the living stones were part of His whirlwind as it operated. We made up His whirlwind!

The judgment to come was the proper gifting and roles as they are placed in the pillar. The judgment is against the flippancy of function of the gifts of God – this is why you won’t be able to stand in the mall (church) if you don’t take your place. (Gifts as they were meant to be applied)

Phillip said that along time ago someone had told him that we are part of the whirlwind – but he said that he had thought that was kind of crazy and half listened. But he said that he realized now that this man really must have been a strange being (God) that this beings ways were all inclusive and other worldly in there application.’

* The season we are now in is a time of judgment of the church institution as it had been. The Tornado (judgment) in the dream is a metaphor for the proper roles of every member of the body being lifted by God to the place of honor - taking their place within the pillar. We being the tornado means that this restructuring will necessitate a re-ordering of the old – thus the destruction of the mall in the dream. When the people of God become His habitation there is no room for anything other than the honoring of the least among us – His body becomes quickened through a reconciliation, being filled with Him – authority and love become one in purpose.

Please note that it is the physical temple – that which is the institution of the church that is being transformed through a greater expansion of its true spiritual purpose – the ‘judgment’ is really His mercy in establishing the true purpose of the word institution. 1: an act of http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/instituting - : http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/establishment - 2 a: a significant practice, relationship, or organization in a society or culture <the institution of marriage …  

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 6:16am | IP Logged

To clarify, when i speak of the credibility of the prophetic movement, I am not speaking of accuracy of gifts as much as innability to properly apply or interpret the prophecy.

I have seen prophets oppose the very words they give, or become part of the very thing they warn about because they had in thier minds what the application or interpretation of that prophecy was. 

So having accuracy of gifting or "seeing and hearing" is not the same as having the Lord's wisdom on the application of it. I do not see many "prophetic movement" prophets in line to be given greater insight because they have personally interpreted and added to the word of the Lord in what he has already given.  

It's hard to get through the gobldy gook sometimes to hear the original thing the Lord gave. I am shocked at times to hear of a dream or vision someone was given and then hear the interpretation of that they give out of a preconception.

God gives us insight of what we DON'T know to teach us at times, Not to bolster our existing opinions. There are too many hired guns in the movement that come in and get the inside scoop of who needs a word from the Lord on thier issues. It's great to see an unknowing prophet actually honors the "rebels" by the Spirit without realizing they are the ones the pastor wants them to shoot down. It makes me laugh!!!

Kris

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 6:41am | IP Logged

DD ~ The Lord has indeed reissued and renewed the cry

"PLACES EVERYONE!"

And what a Place-ment  it is !!!  

Kriston ~ God gives us insight of what we DON'T know to teach us at times, Not to bolster our existing opinions ...

Hmmmmm ....indeed the receiving and the hearing are synonomous.

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 8:01am | IP Logged

I don't share what I share to be accusing. I share what I share because the Spirit is addressing these isues in this hour. He will NOT bless in fullness in this hour those who are using position and gift for personal advancement and pride.

I have learned from personal expericne that in a fellwoship of belivers it is imporatnat to hear even as an overseer (ESPECIALLY AS AN OVERSEER) the corporate vison God is giving to group.

A friend of mine was part of a church cell group in which they began recieving insight and dreams from the Lord regarding the church and it's direction. When they went to share with the pastor his resonse was "I have high level prophets to give me guidance, I don't need your input". One guy asked, "well what about us low level prophets???" This from the "prophetic" church of the city. This is not prophetic, they drove every revelational gift out of the church, and the elder board left is a brownosed administrative group of people who would not dare to promote any vision other then the pastors, and those of the hired prophets who counsel him. 

Rick joyner shares a vision of how all the prophets had left the churches and the people considered "mature" were not  fully prepared in the spirit to fight the great battle. They had to depend on the prophets they scattered from thier midst to help them. And both groups were wrong in how they treated each other.

The true prophets are coming back. And with them comes a PLURALITY of vision and direction from the Lord, even from a 13 year old ADHD bipolar girl.  God is speaking to the least, the emotionally disturbed and the weak, and pastors hear NOTHING, because they have it all already. This is going to change, the indignation of the Lord will accomplish it.

God gives a place of overseership to individuals in fellowships, but that is for the sake of ensuring a plurality and fullness of body revelation.

Kris 

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 8:19am | IP Logged

Kriston ~ This is not prophetic, they drove every revelational gift out of the church ...

Revelation = Relational Reality. The relationship between Elijah and Elisha ...

Amen.

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 8:29am | IP Logged

I think the issue is one of comprehending the worlds meaning of organization versus God's meaning ... this is what God is changing - giving revelation about the operating-organizational principles of the Kingdom ... therefore as we are the living stones, as we take our place - what we had ALL percieved as place-postion before - profoundly shifts ...

Paul was a great leader - and  the 'least of all saints' ...  

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 10:32am | IP Logged

Loren,

I agree wholeheartedly, it is the call of overseeing to protect the flock. It is also true that church leadership today is not the KING leadership of the OT. The success and leadership of a church is not placed in the hands of one man anymore, but in the plurality of eldership. There is definitely the call to an individual shepherd to have the last word, but thier focus is to release the corporate Christ while guarding agianst Anti-Christ.

It really a matter of the tradtional "speak every Sunday lead everything pastor" is going away to be replaced with the kingdom. You will see a stepping down to come into eye-to-eye relationships of mutual submission in congregations by leaders. I am prophesying now and feel free to judge it because you are told to.

The OT was meant as examples for us, not as a structures to live our life by. We now have one king. Time to shift the paradigm to kingdom thinking. A child shall lead them in this paradigm.

I have learned in the last few years to hear what the Spirit is saying through the children in the minstering I have been part of. The adults blow hot air for hours and then a child gets a clear vision and starts to speak. 

I look for and try to involve children in places I go now, because the pure word of God comes from these. When they get wise in thier own eyes like thier adult conterparts is when the gifts wanes and becomes used for thier own glory. this is the plae of loving correction. They will also see and speak hard truth that others will not. My own children are an example of this as I have literally changed course based on the things they get from the Lord. I have been rebuked more then once by the Lord by a dream of my children. And they had no clue it was from the Lord for me. They have dreams, visions and words of knoweledge that I will let them speak in corporate and even in personal prophetic ministry with me.

When church is able to hear the regularly and consistantly GREATER revelation from children, then they can say they are ready to recieve the fullness of the kingdom.

And as an elder/overseer/equipper I also help to guide and train these, giving correction in love, but NOT telling them they are not needed ro too arrogant, but encouraging them in thier gifts.

Kris

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 10:36am | IP Logged

Loren,

Each person in the Body of Christ has a gift or gifts from the Lord.  We none of us have the fullness but are all of us occupying (or should be) some position or element within the Body.  Whereby then all of us become the Body as a whole.

Therefore, what you have to say does not contain the full picture and what I have to say does not contain the full picture.  I do not think it is wise to make judgements concerning what one has or has not experienced or taken into consideration when analyzing a statement someone has made.

I have seen many many many many "churches" that were out of God's order.  This includes both mainline denominational and independent churches.  The system I am refering to is that of the traditional heirarchy, traditional teachings which are not biblical but are taught in almost every place I have ever visited.  These teachings are taught from man to man from pastor to pastor without questioning the validity.  They are convenient "truths" designed to further the system that has been set up by man.  THAT SYSTEM IS COMING DOWN!

But ALL OF THIS is off the point and I don't think my experience or yours needs to be discussed here.  The point I was trying to make and still uphold is that we have to be as cautious in denying prophecies as we need to be in buying into them wholesale.

We can't say that all will be peace any more than we can say that all will be destruction.  True peace has nothing to do with external circumstances anymore than preaching the gospel has to do with the world being at peace.  The point I was making is that the gospel will go forth in the midst of turmulous times and most likely be more effective as a result of destruction coming. 

So, let us pay some heed to the warnings but let each of us seek God for himself or herself and ask God what He would have each of us do.  We each need to discern the truth for ourselves and we have the Holy Spirit to assist us in this.  There are so many "prophets" out there who would claim they have the Word of the Lord and be in complete opposition with one another that if we don't each learn to discern for ourselves (and that comes through relationship with God) then we will be pulled to and fro and won't know WHAT to believe.  Too many winds of doctrines blowing out there...they will blow you off course if you aren't careful.

Sherry

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 12:43pm | IP Logged

Let me share a testimony of a friend of ours who herself also "shepherds" a small fellowship after the kingdom manner in which I described earlier.  She graduated from the current "pastoral" system of dependance when she saw a vision at a meeting in which the people were hooked to the leader like drug users with IV's connected to the "minister". She was horrifed and crushed.

They had a dog who was seemingly dying. Her 7th grade daughter said" mom. I know he is goind to be ok" They took him to the vet and then he just got up and was ok.

Later a friend of the family had a stroke and was on life support with no brain activity.  Her daughter said, "Mom, you know how I knew the dog would be ok?? well so-and-so is going to be ok too." Her mom didn't know what to say, all of the Christain friends of the family were already figuring out who the man's new wife would be after she died. She was too embarassed to say, "no the Lord spoke to my daughter and she is going to be ok." Well guess what happened, she came out of the coma and was home the NEXT week.

A child shall lead them, lead them into faith, lead them into hearing God, lead them into the KINGDOM!!! But only by the Spirit showing that you may only enter the kingdom when you become like a child.

Thers is no king but Jesus, The kingship of Saul was given with God's displeasure because the "plurality of elders" were not listening and asked for flesh to rule over them. God is bringing back to His original intent, HE IS KING, HE IS HEAD, HE IS THE LEADER!!

Kris

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 1:03pm | IP Logged

Excellent Vince! He said He would send Elijah ( and one can read through for themselves the whole of) and he would turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to the fathers. There is a reason Paul wrote if a man know not how to rule his own house, how will you rule the house of God. which rule speaking of a standing before in covenant relationship with. when speaking of subjection( in reading further along in 1Tim.), is meant an orderly manner..which speaks of right-relationship, right-relating. it truly is relational, in covenant relationship giving to honoring in all humilty and in the fear(awe) of the Lord....and it's a mutual relationship. meaning:  hearts are governed by Our Father and His Kingdom which is righteousness manifesting joy and peace in Holy Spirit. the `independent spirit' is removed, lawlessness is removed as His Love abounds in our hearts in and through and too one another. the Son(Sun: even as the sun rises in the east and sets westward) of righteousness arise via this relationship and goes forth with healing in His wings..in and through the sons of God.

something to ~selah~..as the lightning( bright shining) issues out of the east and shines even to the west so shall the coming( parousia, appearing) of the Son of Man/son of man be. that be `we.' ? : )

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 1:54pm | IP Logged

Kathy ~ as the lightning( bright shining) issues out of the east and shines even to the west so shall the coming( parousia, appearing) of the Son of Man/son of man be. that be `we.' ? : )

Yes I believe that that is speaking of the totality of the union - 'as the lighting shines in both the east and the west' speaks of completed work of His coming. Not in war (red lightning) but in inclusion  - (every joint supplies) a totality, a completion.

It is interesting to me that lightning is a result of two poles being equalized

Blessings,

Vincent

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 2:42pm | IP Logged

Amen Kathy and Vince!

Relationships!!! that rtruly is what the kingdom is about. Relationships that are not based on position as much love and a purpose. Hearts of the Fathers to the Children and the children to the Fathers!!! Can we weep more for this fullfilment? Oh God let it be!!!

There is a need for true relationship among the father's and the children, one of trust that enables and puts forth the immature in places they are called to be. That is not happening as it should be now, but it will praise God. How can you take your place when men decide for you what your place is when only God can decide for you what your place is, THAT is the church today!

Kris

Kris

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 2:51pm | IP Logged

Even so come Lord Jesus !

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 3:19pm | IP Logged

Kris,

What do you mean by :

1. Plurality of Vision ?

2. A Child will Lead ?

Can you please provide us scriptural support for this?

How can no.1 take place without confusion? What about Amos 3:3?

The scripture Kathy quoted (how can one rule the house of God if he cannot rule his own house) negates no.2. I do recall coming across a scripture that it is judgement for a child to rule the nation (or to that effect).

Loren,

with regards to your original post on how people begin to build on somebody else's prophecy, I can see your point.

On the other hand, I would like to point out that there is a different level such as "one runner meeting another runner".

Reading through some of the posts here, I really wonder if we know what the genuine prophetic move is. I cannot blame brethren for citing out the false things that have been displayed. I would just like to remind the brethren that the best way to know the false is to first get to know the genuine (like in legal tender).

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 3:34pm | IP Logged

Teknon / Tekna - children /child

Huios - Son

"Creation eagerly waits for the manifestation of the sons of God"

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 3:44pm | IP Logged

Not only do  all of us have an opinion...we likewise have a viewpoint that coincides with our particular prophetic gifting and interest. We must understand that the prophetic umbrella is large and all-encompassing. What may seem to be of great prophetic importance to one person may on the same hand seem irrelavent to another and vice-versa. However, this does not discount the viablilty of the prophetic gifting in regard to each person's god-given personality and how the Lord speaks and writes through that unique individual. All of humanity has an innate propensity to judge another's prophetic integrity based on one's own personality and belief system.

The million dollar question is:  What are people (accusers) going to do upon the so-called exposure of the "false?"  Will the Lord supernaturally bring shame and ruin upon their lives without grace and mercy?  Will, the "prophetic righteous" pass judgement and condemnation upon another whom they believe to be a false prophet? If this is the case; then history has shown much tragedy!

I have come to a place in my life where I need to keep my house in order before casting a stone at another's. The scripture is clear in that false prophets and tares will grow among the wheat. Surely, they will be plucked up by the roots -- but it will not be by our hands. If one desires to prophesy natural disasters...Then prophesy! If one does not adhere to your belief system...Then don't! Who is the judge in the grand scheme of time and place?  Is Isaiah a false prophet because it took hundreds of years for his prophecies to come to pass? 

Is Moses a false prophet? Moses prophesied to at least two-million people of an inheritance and a land flowing with milk and honey. However, only two in two-million witnessed this prophetic word manifest in their lives. Should a million or two classify Moses as a false prophet?  I personally believe that prophecy has anywhere from 100% chance of happening to two in two million percent chance of happening. It all depend upon the words and actions of the receivers!

Let's cut each other some slack and stop the idolatry that has diseased the camp of God's people. For truly, we have usurped the position of "God" in many of our prepositions, beliefs and mindsets.

In Him,

dk

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 4:08pm | IP Logged

Hi All

I have taken the liberty of pulling a portion of the post I wrote on another thread: maturing of the ear that some of you have also written on : there was balance brought to that thread by Bojo, Mark, Reggie...so it would be good to read the whole thread: just in case you don't get to it: here's the part relevant to this discussion:

Mature sons: he who has been given an ear, HEAR!

There is no point in us lumping all the prophetic together into one big "thus, said the Lord" and trying to sift and weed out what is accurate and what is not, and who is speaking what measure......it's all just STUFF!

Caleb, my 3 year-old grandson, walks around singing 'I know who I am'..Sons,  KNOW who you are, KNOW THE FATHER, KNOW THE FATHER'S VOICE, KNOW HIS PURPOSE in this hour...and FOCUS on our mission: the unveiling of the mystery hidden for ages past in God now disclosed to us, the mystery of God, namely CHRIST, and in doing so make known the manifold wisdom of God in the heavenly realms (Eph 3:9; Col 2:2)

There are those who are using prophetic gifts today to solely echo what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 and what the OT prophets saw ...if they are being obedient to the Father if He is training them in hearing and speaking...let it be... the truth of what they are hearing and seeing is clear in just looking at the earth groaning....scientists even and every other type of seer are reading the signs of the times and saying similar things.

There are others who are using the revelation gifts for the edification of the body to bring it to maturity encouraging and edifying individual members in the Body as to their purpose.... if they are being obedient to the Father and are in training.....let it be...

There are others who are speaking as the Father's representatives who have never even had the basic introduction and are easily indentifiable: they have been there since the gospels were written and even before.... In John 8:20, Jesus dealt with them: "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." and in fact, He was quite harsh in His assessment as Matthew records in 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ²²Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' ²³Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'....   so our focus should not be distracted by them unless the Father instructs us to intervene with the whip where there is merchandising...

And don't let me even go to us using our ear to discredit politicians!!!! (please don't get me wrong, I've been there, done that and have been disciplined for staying longer than I should have in what was only supposed to be part of my training..) Paul asked the question of the Corinthian church, "what fellowship does light have with darkness?" Sons of God, what are we even doing wasting precious time with STUFF when the treasures and secret things of God have been disclosed to us because we have been entrusted to bring to PERFECTION that which all the forerunners began...

The STANDARD IS BEING RAISED, mature sons of God...

Sun, said,  "there is a balance that is urgently needed to those have forfeited their own agenda and own life to follow him".... YES!!!

........ "Balance comes from the spirit of God. The corner stone, the capstone, and the plum line will be only given by the Holy Spirit, not man's own imagination and knowledge"...

......."We all need to learn appreciate others who belong to Him. The Lamb need not to fear the lion, the lion needs not to despise the lamb. They can eat grass together in the Kingdom lead by the Good Shepherd."

On this forum, I have found many sons: we are at different levels of maturity, our training has been different but in the koinonia, there is developing a singleness of purpose, a mindset shift to discard our immature ways..let's leave behind our childish desire to be proved "right" in what we hear and say which has kept us 'playing' in the shallow waters to prove again and again that we are "tight with God" as the kids would say):

See the BIG PICTURE! Let us step up: our ears have been trained, now let us mature in this area and FOCUS ON HIM AND HIS PURPOSE...onward to the GLORY...ZION AWAITS US...

There is that which has been reserved FOR OUR EARS ONLY...on the path that the eye of the fowler has never seen...let us press in to hear that which He desires for us...

We have an instructed tongue and an awakened ear : let us go on to maturity of purpose....hasten the day Lord, when the sons are seen and the voice of the Father is heard...

Love

Prema

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 4:20pm | IP Logged

Danny,

I believe this is the first time I am "meeting" you. All I can say with what you wrote "Hammer!"

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 6:55pm | IP Logged

Reggie,

 just in way of explaining what i am sharing is: not a novice as in one who has not been through preparation..and even through preparation, one may not fully understand how to rule..as in how to be a father, just because one has a child. it is after having a child one comes to understand experientially the `how.' It is a learning process and one which is by learning of Him..meek and lowly in heart. and so it is the same child-likeness..humility of heart.

humility of heart can be found in 'the least to the greatest', the rich and the poor, the unknowns and knowns..it is not a matter of outward stature or appearence..but a matter of the heart. these are not `things'  which we are to look upon on anyway..outward appearance : )

just as we have heard much about a `nameless faceless' people and failed in someways to understand what was truly being said by that. it was being heard more of as `unknowns' but what is meant is the heart attitiude/position is one of humility.

"Except you be turned and become as little children, you will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven"( the Governing of God), and so this is His Divine order of entrance and continuing in our journey and is His outflowing of Life in whatever sphere of life..humility of heart. "As He is so are we in this world" He is the same yesterday, today and forever, He is meek and lowly of heart.

in Paul writing to Timothy and telling him how to relate with those older and the younger, sisters and brothers etc. we see he is speaking of his attitude/position of heart/mind flowing outward.

blessings bro.,

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 9:07pm | IP Logged

I hope this helps to clarify, not add confusion...

This is something I just wrote and the Lord told me to post it on OH. I was very curious of it, now I know why... :)

------------

Covenant with Moses (The Israelites)

In Gen 15, God foretold Abram that his decedents would suffer as aliens in a foreign land for 400 years.

According to Paul, it happened 430 years later, as the Israelites was enslaved by Egyptians as we mentioned in last chapter. God raised up Moses to lead them out of Egypt to the land He promised to their forefathers.

Now, this story is most familiar to us, I would pass it by and get to place when God gave the Old Covenant to them.

Exod. 19:3-6 [NIV]

³Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, ˇ°This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ⁴ˇ®You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eaglesˇŻ wings and brought you to myself. ⁵Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, ⁶you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.ˇŻ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.ˇ±

From reading, we can clearly see that GodˇŻs intention was not to give the Israelite Law that they could never fulfill. Rather, He intended to fulfill His promise and raise them up as a holy people, who will be priests for Him among the nations. Through them, He will teach other peoples and show unto them His glory and power, love and mercy, righteousness and justice.

In a sense, His first desire of having preserved and prepared them, delivered them and guided them till this point is not merely to give them the land He promised to their forefather; rather, He would have them be set apart for His usage and bring salvation and His disrupted plan unto Man back to track.

He will be the King of a kingdom of priests, which means they are all sons to Him. In the same context, we know that He had delivered them from slavery and had redeemed them from the judgment of death. He called them his first-borns. In this, however, also implicitly leading to a further position He would have them to enter into. That is to rule or reign with Him in His Kingdom. He would teach them more than Priestly wisdom, but also Kingly wisdom. He would exalt them before kings and princes of the earth, for in His eyes, Israel is His Prince.

 But the Israelites fell into unbelief and rebellion, practiced acts of wickedness and idolatry when Moses was summoned unto the peak of Sinai to receive the Law. Their heart was dull, this wonderful promise was too much for them to perceive and receive.

God, out of His love and at the mediation of Moses, who serves as a type for Christ Jesus in heart, lowered the standard and gave them the Law, in order to preserve the seed of His promise, more to Abraham and Jacob, but also to His Son.

And He did not stop His work of further revelation of what He intended for Man through His Eternal Covenant with His Son. He will reveal His desire to make His sons (members of His family) princes in His Kingdom by raising up a man after His own heart.

----------

Reggie, Kris and Kathy,

About the Child will lead thing, I will add my one cent here. :)

"A child will lead them" is recorded in Isa 11. It is talking about the prophetic picture of David or Christ Jesus, the Branch and the Root of Jesse. It is implying the Kingly Character: Riding a donkey, meek and lowly in heart. Because even He is the Lion of Judah, yet in His heart and the way He exercise his Power He is like a Lamb. This is also reflected in David's early life. This is a life of a Good Shepherd. But in the Kingdom, bear and lion will be changed to eat grass with ox and lamb. Surely, a child can lead them. This serves a prophetic picture of the Kingdom of Peace.

Now, I believe, the beasts mentioned in the same context represents peoples of the world, or different tribes of God's people.

Kingly anoiting is never to load over His people, rather to exercise authority and power over the Kingdom of Darkness and establish righteousness and justice amongst His own; Priestly anointing is to show unto God's people His mercy and love, but also to forgive or judge them on God's behalf when they sinned. (John spoke of some sin will lead to death, which will incue judgment.)

In the order of Melchizedek, the two offices find hormony as prophecized by Zechariah... 

If we are sons of God, then we are destined to serve under this order and this order only. As to the manifestation or expression of this in the world, this will have to be ordered by our Father. Surely, we do not have much a say about it, not mentioned men of this world.  "Everything is wrought by (in) God".

I believe here lies the essence why Jesus taught His disciples to pray the Kingdom of Heaven come to earth, even through their obedience and love unto the Father and Himself.

I hope this makes sense.

Peace and Grace to you all...

Posted: 06/12/2009 at 9:29pm | IP Logged

This is so good... :)

Posted: 06/13/2009 at 2:15am | IP Logged

Just a quick response:

Wasn't it Samuel who was appointed by God to lead at the time Israel asked for a king? When Samuel felt rejected, God told him that the people didn't reject him but HIM.

No question about God using the weak and foolish things of this world. The question or issue is about LEADING..

In my point of view, many of the scandals of ministers falling are because children have been put in leadership roles. Just because one has a bible college degree or ordained by a denomination doesn't make one mature. Maturity, or sonship, takes a long process of breakings and dealings. When one has gone through the spiritual Bar Mitzvah, then and only then can he receive the signet ring and conduct business in the Father's stead.

This is one of the major problems I see. Just because one has received the Lord, reads the Bible, is a silver tongued orator, has a diploma hanging on the wall, he/she thinks he/she can lead the flock of the Lord already. At the end, when a scandal breaks, the negative effect brings about a big stumbling stone.

There is definitely something wrong if a family is led by a child. Don't you think so?

This all sounds good if it is in the context of Peter Pan but it doesn't sit well in my spirit when we are talking about the kingdom of God.

I still don't know if we are all in the same page when it comes to Divine Order.

Posted: 06/13/2009 at 3:33am | IP Logged

Reggie,

Isaiah chapter 3 has the verse about children leading.

Posted: 06/13/2009 at 7:53am | IP Logged

This thread began as an answer Loren gave to the prophecy of the earthquake in Mid-America. It has changed directions a couple of times during its life here, and has slowly devolved into the same old argument that could be found on a dozen threads throughout this forum. I would like to suggest that these two issues are related.

I think it was very appropriate that Loren to challenge the doom and gloom surrounding many of the prophecies given today. These words are being interpreted either through natural scientific worldviews, or through the pain that surrounds the prophet’s heart. As we have watched our own culture disenfranchise us, it is easy to embrace the despair that our adversary would like us to have. And so, we find doom and gloom in the words of powerful change. I find it far more likely that what we are being shown is not the destruction of the current culture/current world, but the advance of the kingdom of which we are part. So, for every earthquake, for every tidal wave, for every dam-bursting we have read about in prophetic words there exists a doom and gloom interpretation, but also the possibility of God's encouragement. I will return to this in a moment, but first I would like to say how it relates to the same old argument which we have reached in this thread.

A new move of the Holy Spirit fundamentally changes our worldview and our working experience of life in the kingdom. But, it does not entirely sweep away all of the structures and all of the practices which existed before it came. If we look at the Pentecostal movement in the early part of last century it impacted a Church which was devoid of understanding that the supernatural still permeated the lives of believers every day. The church of that time was mired in structures which had been imported from the world around. This included a very high value on the material and the scholastic, so that education and spiritual authority were assumed to be one thing. Clearly, that move of the Holy Spirit did not sweep away all of the emphasis of the church on education. The same can be said for the second wave of the Holy Spirit which swept the church from the early 1970s through the 1990s. This wave moved directly against passivity of the average church member. Today, we are quite familiar with the landscape that has been revealed by this move of the Spirit. This does not mean that we have come to complete agreement, and, it does not mean we have seen every structure swept away by this move. But it does mean that we have well rehearsed arguments for whatever our position is at this point. This is why we return again and again to the same argument. We are familiar with this territory and we know what part of it is ours.

Honestly, we need to turn from all we know at look forward to what is coming next. Our hearts should be seeking with all their might be part of what God is going to do next, not what he has done.

With that in mind I would like to import a vision from another thread:

Might Wall of Water – Vision received today 1pm from the Lord in prayer

Coming from the East over to the West.  Coming from the right over to the left a mighty wall of water comes.

Raised from the seabed itself, straight up.  Tidal wave of great proportion travelling, building, standing tall.  A hard wall of water gathering strength as a brick growing taller, taller than the highest trees on earth. 

It is extremely slow and it is powerful but is building in strength and power.  It’s destination towards the West from right to left.  Nothing can get past it.  Nothing can penetrate or stop this slow moving wall that cannot be penetrated.  

It is coming that is for sure.  As I write this I see clearly the immense height of water and the colour is blue.  There is as yet no white curl of surf for it is growing from the East.  It travels guided from the heavens above.

Stand in awe at the sight of this natural occurrence for nothing can stop its destination.

It is coming; it is very tall it is very blue as the ocean.

Shofar girl

You will notice in this vision that the wave is blue. Natural tidal waves are not blue. If you doubt that, find old film footage of the tsunami in Thailand.

This is not a natural event.

 It is a promise of a new wave of the Holy Spirit. The prophetic words today are filled to over-flowing with similar sights. I could have selected from images of earthquakes, images of dams bursting, images of volcanoes. Take what is seen, and ask what it means… All of these are announcements of God's intent to radically impact His Kingdom; to shake what can be shaken, and to strengthen what remains. We can continue to crash our arguments together and defend the territory which we have selected as ours, or we can reach forward into what is coming.

I will not presume to know the ending from the beginning. I do not know the end result of this next wave. But I believe that it will be directed against the partitioning between generations which has been artificially created in the world and now cripples the church. In the world, each generation is expected to have its own manner of dress, music, tastes, and worldview. This artificial structure is enforced beginning with our public school system. It ensures that the wisdom and knowledge which would lift our culture higher is interrupted and does not freely flow forward. The church has embraced this perspective of generations, and I know that God is moving against it at this time. I do not expect this wave to result in lifting up one generation over another, but by uniting them in proper order and in great strength in God's family.

Blessings,

Mark

Posted: 06/13/2009 at 11:16am | IP Logged

DD, I appreciate your thoughts in the latest post. It offers much balance to the thread.

Posted: 06/13/2009 at 12:07pm | IP Logged

Larry,

Many thanks! I see it

"I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them. The people will be oppressed, every one by another and every one by his neighbor, the child will be insolent toward the elder, and the base toward the honourable."  - Isaiah 3:4-5

DD,

I have the impression that your words are seasoned with a lot of experience. What a fitting description "Orphaned spirit".

Praise the Lord for His unending mercies that He promised us that He will not leave us orphans. Inspite of the topsy turvy areas where orphans rule, praise God that we can be confident that those things are subject to change.

Mark,

I had to smile when you brought in the vision of Shofar Girl. I just saw a very similar vision last Friday as I prayed with several city elders. What I saw was this:

I saw a city with buildings and roads. Then, slowly but surely a rising flood began to engulf the roads and then the buildings. Ultimately the whole city was under water.

The revelation came that the roads we are used to take shall no longer be. The familiar paths shall be erased as it were. The mighty strong buildings, human structures, shall no longer be seen. The word "flexibility" came.

A new season of flowing with the stream or current of the flood waters shall be the new "road". One has to let go and be taken by the moving of the water.

There was such an anointing and Presence of the Lord when I spoke this that the gate keepers/elders of the city witnessed to the word. Another one actually confirmed it right on the spot and we prayed based on the revelation.

Personally, this is a sequel to the revelation the Lord gave us regarding the flood during the time of Noah. Water didn't only come from heaven (sovereign move of God) but Gen.7 tells ust hat all the fountains of the deep were opened. Believers have rivers of living water flowing from their innermost beings. The rising water will not only come from the sovereign move of God but as every son of God be so stirred up. We are the fountains of the deep that need to be opened up. Let "deep call unto deep".

Water will flow from the Throne, to the temple, and into the streets, as Ezekiel saw it.

Sorry Loren for the deviation.

Posted: 06/13/2009 at 12:25pm | IP Logged

it was all good to me..but then that's me : ) hah! i learned quite a bit here!

a huge amen to what you shared Mark! the coming together of generations..YesWay!

Posted: 06/13/2009 at 12:29pm | IP Logged

Kathy,

Thank you for taking time to explain. I believe we are reading the same page.

Sun,

I see it too in Isaiah 11:6.