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VOICE OF PROPHECY - Prophetic Words
OpenHeaven.com Forum : VOICE OF PROPHECY - Prophetic Words
Subject Topic: An Approaching Crisis - Loren Sandford Post Reply Post New Topic
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Posted: 09/28/2010 at 2:07pm | IP Logged Quote Moderator

An Approaching Crisis

Monday, 27 September 2010 07:41 AM EDT Loren Sandford
 

Loren SandfordI find myself beyond appalled and deeply concerned about a trend I have seen developing in the body of Christ for several years now. I believe this trend is propelling us toward a crisis in the charismatic Christian world that may well derail and destroy revival before it can take firm root.

It seems that in the quest to become more and more supernatural many have increasingly wandered away from the plumb line of solid Christian doctrine and responsible, accurate interpretation of the Scriptures. The resultant weirdness flowing from key leaders in various places is leading many followers into what can only be called heresy.

Some prominent teachers in the renewal movement now espouse "open theism," which posits that God does not know the future—the end from the beginning. It then builds on that premise to diminish the revelation of the omniscience and absolute power of our God that Scripture so clearly articulates.

Another teaching gaining ground among us is the idea that once we have come to Jesus we need never repent again because we are no longer sinners. What about Paul's statement concerning sinners, for instance, among whom he identified himself in present tense as "foremost of all" (1 Tim. 1:15)? I think some people need to do a thorough study of New Testament exhortations that call us to repent.

 The problem stretches from the heretical to the silly. I recently returned from a ministry trip to New Zealand where one prominent leader has been teaching that we can unleash our spirituality by taking monoatomic gold pills. Why? Because Adam was made of monoatomic gold! What?

Another teacher here in the U.S. teaches that God didn't part the Red Sea—Moses did! Where is our discernment? Recently I've heard it taught that it would be OK to pierce the ear in the lobe but not at the top because the top is the "ear gate" and you might hinder your ability to hear God. Where is there any real foundation for this in God's Word?

I am aware of one Christian leader who has devised a method of Christian divination, claiming that in doing so he has redeemed something for Christian use that the enemy stole. What happened to the biblical injunction against engaging in that kind of activity and the penalties for doing it?

I'm just scratching the surface here with a few representative examples. Where is the justification for any of this when held up to the light of solid exegesis of God's Word? And if you don't know what exegesis is, take some time to look it up and learn to understand how to read the Bible accurately for it actually says.

It's time for us to stop interpreting the Bible through the filter of our personal revelations and personal experiences and learn to interpret our personal revelations and personal experiences by the Bible.

A year and a half ago my friend Fred Wright, founding coordinator of Partners in Harvest, and I were discussing the state of the prophetic movement and the plethora of bad prophecy being spoken by leading prophetic voices. He said, "If something isn't done soon, the prophetic movement is over in five years." He's right. We've been focused on being supernatural and getting the next "word" at the expense of intimacy with the One for whom we would speak.

Too often we've failed to sift our own emotions from the true prophetic word flowing from the heart of God. As a result we end up prophesying words from our own imaginations and desires. Many have been doing what Jeremiah cried out against, "Therefore behold, I am against the prophets ... who steal My words from each other" (Jer. 23:30).

Here's how it works: We hear prophecies from one another that excite our emotions in both positive and negative ways. Then in our flesh we build on what has excited us, failing to differentiate between personal feelings and the voice of God, until the words we speak go well beyond the truth of God's heart. Skewed and extreme statements either raise false expectations of great things or feed excessive fear and dread—not the truth!

Please know that I am a dyed-in-the-wool "river" person. I cherish the move of the Spirit. I love it when God makes a sovereign "mess" of a meeting and people fall, laugh, cry and shake. I love good prophetic ministry. People receive miraculous healing in my church regularly. We've heard audible angel song in some of our meetings. I am by no means a revival critic, but I have been given a prophetic voice and I must use it to sound the alarm when God calls me to do so.

These things I call attention to are just a representative sampling of the utter nonsense growing in renewal circles these days and being passed off as revelation by a number of key leaders. Those who have attempted to stand against this pollution of the stream have sometimes been vilified and accused of creating division or squelching the Spirit. They would be in good company where creating division is concerned. Jeremiah! Micaiah! Paul! Jesus Himself!

For my part, I believe (prophetically) that the great apostasy prophesied in Scripture has begun, but that it has taken root in unexpected places, where personal revelation is presented as fact and where leaders twist Scripture to make it appear to support propositions based on grains of truth driven to extremes that render them false. Heresies and spiritual silliness result.

A saying the Lord has given me of late is, "If you focus on being supernatural you'll end up in shipwreck, but if you focus on being intimate with the Father you'll end up being supernatural." Doesn't that sound like Jesus?

In too many places the hunger has shifted from longing to be one with Jesus—and with our Father through Him—to a focus on seeking supernatural experiences. This is a form of idolatry. Or we long for the next great spiritual revelation and forget that the most foundational revelation of all is the Father's heart of love and the invitation given us to grow up to be like Him in every aspect of our character.

This calls for a renewed emphasis on the cross (where we die with Christ), the blood that cleanses us from sin, and the resurrection that gives us new life. Paul said—and with good reason, "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified" (1 Cor. 2:2).

And did we forget that the word "canon" with reference to the Scripture means the "fence" beyond which we cannot go—that we can neither add to nor detract from it? In too many places the focus has shifted and we're about to find ourselves impaled on hidden reefs of destruction.

About the author: Loren Sandford is the founder and senior pastor of New Song Fellowship in Denver, Colo. He is a songwriter, recording artist and worship leader, as well as the author of several books, including Understanding Prophetic PeopleThe Prophetic Church and his latest, Renewal for the Wounded Warrior, which are available with other resources on the church's website. 

 



Edited by Moderator on 09/28/2010 at 2:08pm
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Channing Bogle
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Posted: 09/28/2010 at 5:24pm | IP Logged Quote Channing Bogle

I agree with you 100% Loren. For years I have been discouraged in the prophetic movement. I believe too much of what is said either comes from our own hearts or even demonic influences. In Acts 16: 16, 17....it tells that a women possessed with a spirit of divination met them, who had brought her masters much gain by soothsaying. She followed Paul ....saying , "these men are the servants of the most High God which show unto us the way of salvation." Paul turned and cast a demon out of her.
   The word soothsaying means to utter a demonic curse through the pretense of prophesying. I have experienced this kind of demonic prophesying in 3 churches. I was even ignored on 2 occasions when I told those in leadership what was actually happening. I was told it was impossible by one pastor.
  Prophetic words are uttered that "sound doctrinally correct"....but are uttered by a demonic anointing. These actually bring cursing rather than blessing.
  Most of the other prophesies are from the heart of man. I used to come to open heaven often. Now very rarely...have not posted anything in a couple of years.....the presidential election was a big dis heartening down fall between me and open heaven. Too much here is not from the Lord and it is discouraging. WHERE ARE THE TRUE PROPHETS !!!!!  ARE THERE ANY ??????  Even the big names miss it often. Thanks for your post....we need to pray that our God will turn us back to HIM.....
                                                    Blessings to ya.........    Channing


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Posted: 09/28/2010 at 5:50pm | IP Logged Quote Kriston Couchey

LOREN wrote:

A saying the Lord has given me of late is, "If you focus on being supernatural you'll end up in shipwreck, but if you focus on being intimate with the Father you'll end up being supernatural." Doesn't that sound like Jesus?



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Posted: 09/30/2010 at 7:14am | IP Logged Quote Channing Bogle

Love that saying and it is very true, hope you have a blessed weekend.

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Posted: 09/30/2010 at 7:23am | IP Logged Quote Mandy Gay

Hi,

My experience with the dealings of the Lord is that He gives us just enough rope to hang ourselves... given enough rope the enemy in us is finally exposed in all its glory leading to repentance. 

It seems that crises are all part of the journey that expose and eliminate the flesh.



Edited by Mandy Gay on 09/30/2010 at 7:29am


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Posted: 09/30/2010 at 10:07am | IP Logged Quote Stacey Yerian

Loren Sanford wrote:

A saying the Lord has given me of late is, "If you focus on being supernatural you'll end up in shipwreck, but if you focus on being intimate with the Father you'll end up being supernatural." Doesn't that sound like Jesus?

.

Yep!  Thanks for posting!



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Posted: 12/30/2010 at 10:11am | IP Logged Quote Lonnie Starr

Channing said:

Too much here is not from the Lord and it is discouraging. WHERE ARE THE TRUE PROPHETS !!!!!  ARE THERE ANY ?????? 

Until June of this year my wife and I considered the prophetic postings that appeared on Bill Somer's site, www.etpv.org.  Many of you may know that Bill died after heart surgery in April. 

We felt that one person in particular, Olivia Long, had a history of receiving reliable words from Father, words that resonated deeply.  My wife was in contact occasionally with Olivia and after Bill's death the three of us concluded, independantly I might add, that the time for the prophetic was finished.  In our last email from her, a farewell message for she knew her season was finished, she said 

"For years we have said "The best is yet to come" now, dear brothers and sisters, get ready for the best is now here." 

and I think that may well correct.  The real issue may be one of expectations; we don't know what to expect; we judge according to what we know for our spiritual eyes are just not honed well enough to discern what is happening.

I know that the "White Horse" of Rev. 6:2, the spirit of the Anointed One, is riding because of the faithful remnant of the Lord who have stayed in their hiding places in full obedience to Father's plans.  This effect is described in Zech. 4:7 as Zerubabbel, one who has come out of mixture and confusion, affects the spirit realm so greatly that the Spirit of God, through him, destroys the great mountain, the kingdoms of men and satan.  (Bible translators decided to call this white horse the false Christ.  That is not true, a lack of understanding in the natural minds of men.)

We suspect that valid prophecy has probably ceased.  We haven't seen anything with any substance since the posts ceased on etpv.  (The site archives are available there if anyone is interested.)

Channing, I believe there have been true prophets and I know they have been in the most obscure places.  They don't eagerly go forth to broadcast the messages they receive.  They hear Father's voice, obey, and involve themselves only where He tells them to go.

I think you said elsewhere that most prophecy today is either inspired by the enemy or birthed in the souls of men rather than the Spirit of God.  I agree.  People are trying so hard to be supernatural and that is not in the hands of men to control or manifest.

I do hope you get this, I know you said you don't visit this forum much anymore.

Regards,

Lon

 

 

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Posted: 12/30/2010 at 12:05pm | IP Logged Quote Lyn McSweeney

Moderator wrote:

A saying the Lord has given me of late is, "If you focus on being supernatural you'll end up in shipwreck, but if you focus on being intimate with the Father you'll end up being supernatural." Doesn't that sound like Jesus?



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Posted: 12/30/2010 at 3:43pm | IP Logged Quote Kathy Bippus

Loren wrote:
This calls for a renewed emphasis on the cross (where we die with Christ), the blood that cleanses us from sin, and the resurrection that gives us new life.Paul said—and with good reason, "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified" (1 Cor. 2:2).

 amen



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Posted: 12/30/2010 at 10:09pm | IP Logged Quote Michele Hay

To say that there is danger of adding to or taking from the word of the Lord is a good word.

But to say that there is no more prophecy may be going a bit far. I do believe that each of us need to be discerning and prayerful about what we read that others post or say as being from the Lord.

There are some things posted that a few believe are wrong...but I may believe with some others... sound like what the Lord is saying at this time.

And the reverse is true...somethings sound not right to me...and some others agree with them.

I don't think we are to necessarily agree with each thing posted...this is an open forum. We are to be prayerful and discerning and scriptural. Perhaps that is what needs to be said now and again. And let the somewhat mature point it out if they see concerns or scripturalness issues.

Sometimes a post is not anything the Lord has shown me and I do not know if it is true. I take it to prayer.

m.

 



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Posted: 12/31/2010 at 9:43am | IP Logged Quote Stacey Yerian

Thank you Michele.  Good advice.

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Posted: 12/31/2010 at 10:25am | IP Logged Quote Lonnie Starr

The concept of the ending of prophetic gifting is scriptural:

1 Cor 13:8-10

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of  prophecy, they will be done away; if there are  tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
NASU

It hinges on the appearing of that that is perfect.  Now what is that perfect thing that is to appear?  Does it become a spiritual force before its appearing in the natural?  Does it explode on the natural scene so that all can see and recoginze it as that perfect thing?

Other than Father Himself who knows?  At this time these are muddy waters at best.

Lon

 


 

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Posted: 12/31/2010 at 10:56am | IP Logged Quote james hill

Isaiah 30:8-18 (English Standard Version)

A Rebellious People
 8And now, go,(A) write it before them on a tablet
   and inscribe it in a book,
that it may be for the time to come
   as a witness forever.[a]
9(B) For they are a rebellious people,
   lying children,
children unwilling to hear
   the instruction of the LORD;
10(C) who say to(D) the seers, "Do not see,"
   and to the prophets, "Do not prophesy to us what is right;
speak to us(E) smooth things,
   prophesy illusions,
11leave the way, turn aside from the path,
   let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel."
12Therefore thus says the Holy One of Israel,"Because you despise this word
   and trust in(F) oppression and perverseness
   and rely on them,
13therefore this iniquity shall be to you
   (G) like a breach in a high wall, bulging out, and about to collapse,
   whose breaking comes suddenly, in an instant;
14and its breaking is(H) like that of a potter’s vessel
   that is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a shard is found
   with which to take fire from the hearth,
   or to dip up water out of the cistern."

 15For thus said the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel,"In(I) returning[b] and(J) rest you shall be saved;
   in quietness and in trust shall be your strength."
But you were unwilling, 16and you said,"No! We will flee upon(K) horses";
   therefore you shall flee away;
and, "We will ride upon swift steeds";
   therefore your pursuers shall be swift.
17(L) A thousand shall flee at the threat of one;
   at the threat of five you shall flee,
till you are left
   like a flagstaff on the top of a mountain,
   like a signal on a hill.

The LORD Will Be Gracious
 18Therefore the LORD(M) waits to be gracious to you,
   and therefore he(N) exalts himself to show mercy to you.
For the LORD is a God of justice;
   (O) blessed are all those who wait for him.
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Posted: 12/31/2010 at 12:21pm | IP Logged Quote Kevin D. James

I read the initial post by Pastor Loren Sanford and comments by others.

He has correctly discerned and identified this poison. It's a sickening form of spiritual mixture and defilement.

Genuine Revival Is Not Recognized
The mess going on in that environment has already been exposed for the shameful fraud that it is. Scores have been hurt, embarrassed and see through that garbage.

Don't disturb it. Just leave it alone and the seed of it continue to grow until harvest time. Abba-Father has orchestrated that the wheat should grow up right alongside the chaff.

Matthew 13:30
"....Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn."

The hidden mystery to this parable and its relevance to our crisis is that ---harvest cannot take place until the seed reaches maturity. It's all about spiritual maturity.

God is raising up a remnant who desires nothing more than ----to be canopied and enveloped in the purifying, refining fire of His glory. We are not in pursuit of "gifts, toys, prosperity or things." We are in relentless pursuit to love on Messiah, to please Him, obey His instruction (Torah) and fulfill His desires.

Subsequently, it is in this environment of pure worship and total surrender that the glory of Messiah is manifesting awesome miracles and so much more. This is what we are finding in our gatherings. Not only do we see tumors evaporating, documented reports of cancers being healing and the lame walking...but the people are hungry to put on Christ, express His nature and walk in the reality of the One New Man.

When this is achieved the scripture is fulfilled that ----"prophesies shall cease". The gifts are no longer necessary because we've put on the fullness of the New Man.


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Posted: 12/31/2010 at 5:21pm | IP Logged Quote Lonnie Starr

Kevin, you said:

"The gifts are no longer necessary because we've put on the fullness of the New Man."

This is what I have thought the meaning of that "perfect" thing mentioned in I
Cor 13.  Do you see this as one corporate event or a place in the individuals growth?

Lon

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Posted: 01/01/2011 at 9:34pm | IP Logged Quote Kevin D. James

@Lonnie Starr ----

We know that saint Paul wrote that letter to the entire body in Corinth. Therefore, it's a word to the entire corporate spiritual body of Christ.

PERFECTION - WHAT IS IT?

An important point that we can't ignore is the meaning of the word "perfect" in the ancient Greek text.

I Corinthians 13:8  "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


Comment: What we come to understand that love will never fade, but prophecies, tongues and academic knowledge will at some point become useless.

In verse ten, the Young's Literal Hebrew and Greek Translation says; "shall become useless," instead of ---that which is perfect is come...as is found in the King James translation.}


In the original Greek, the word "teleios" is translated into our English word 'perfect'.  Teleios means; "complete, growth of mental and moral character".

(Ref: Greek New Testament Lexicon , word #5056)

Teleious...

  1. brought to its end, finished
  2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
  3. perfect
  • consummate human integrity and virtue
  • of men...
  • full grown, adult, of full age, mature

The word telelios is connected to another Greek word #3588, which means "completeness of age, completeness of man, the state of completeness, maturity, consumation." 

 

We now understand that God desires to perfect in us His loving character and nature!



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Posted: 01/02/2011 at 6:24am | IP Logged Quote Lonnie Starr

Kevin,

Thanks for doing all that for me.  I am a little chagrined because I do have similar resources and should have done that myself.  But then I do like another opinion when I see things as a little cloudy.

I knew when I asked that I was not stating my question clearly so I will try again.  But first, my wife and I are finding that "prophecy" is saying nothing new to us and we are thinking "Is there anything less to say?  All that is left is His appearing."  But it does not seem that prophecy has ended for all.

The phrase "shall become useless" adds considrable clarity.

I was wondering if you think that there will be complete end to prophecy, etc. at His appearing in the Chosen (Bride, Remnant, whatever) that is if such a thing is a part of your beliefs.

Hope I'm a little clearer now.

Lon

 

 



Edited by Lonnie Starr on 01/02/2011 at 6:27am
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Posted: 01/02/2011 at 10:44pm | IP Logged Quote Loren Sandford

"The perfect" referred to in I Corinthians 13 that puts an end to prophecy can only be the only One who is perfect. The gifts of the Spirit, including tongues, prophecy and knowledge, cannot be done away with until the perfect comes - Jesus at His return. Until then we in our unperfected state cannot hope to know more than in part. "Now we know in part, but then face to face." "Face to face" can only mean face to face with the returned and manifested Lord because the language of "face to face" is so very personal. One person to another. Until we meet Him face to face we cannot know Him fully. We're growing in knowledge through the revealed Word and through His Spirit, but that knowledge is not complete until He returns, we see Him face to face and are changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Until that time every gift of the Spirit remains in operation because we need them.


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