Posted: 04/11/2010 at 6:33pm | IP Logged

Are the scriptures truly the “Word of God?”Pt.1

It could appear as though the Holy Spirit has taken a back seat to the “written text, scripture or bible” once again. It has really been this way for centuries if we consider history. I have long wondered whether or not modern religianity would ever come to grips with the “word of God.” Nearly anyone who professes Christ refers to the “bible or scriptures” as the “word of God,” yet in those scriptures we find verses like this…

“But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'” Matthew 4:4 NASB

“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.” John 10:16 NASB

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;” John 10:27 NASB

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.  15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.” John 16:13-15 NASB

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Vs. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:1, 14 NASB

“Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.  7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” John 14:6-7 NASB

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;  40  and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” John 5:39-40 NASB

If we really consider the written words like, “EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD,” “they will hear My voice,” “My sheep hear My voice,” “He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come,” “Word was God,” “the Word became flesh,” “I am the truth,” “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life… you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” wouldn’t we come to the conclusion that the “word of God” in its fullest sense is not what’s written, but rather a living revelation of Jesus to us today via the Holy Spirit? Jesus is still writing, His children are His epistles.

If the bible explains that the “word of God” is Jesus, and that we should only worship HIM, why do professing Christians refer to the bible as the “word of God,” and worship it? This is exactly what is happening today, just as it was happening in the days of Jesus ministry as we can see in John 5:39-40. It was these “scripture worshippers” back then that Jesus said have never known Him so that they could have eternal life, in fact He rebuked them for worshipping their version of the written words instead of Him!

The “word of God” is alive among us today, He is Jesus, let’s worship Him not the record that testifies of Him.

The written Word in its original form, which was Aramaic, Hebrew-Chaldean, and Greek, as is written in 2Ti 3:16-17 ASV “Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.  17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.” However, that which has filtered down to us in this present age, in many respects leaves something to be desired. For a nice explanation of some of this I recommend reading the “Ecclesiastical Conspiracy” available at http://www.awildernessvoice.com/GEC.html.

I have more than 35 translations available to me today, and I am amazed at the inconsistency and contradiction in the various versions. It is devastating that we have been conditioned by man's religion into believing that every word we read in our many translations (The King James being only one) is the indisputable, inspired Word of God. The King James Version of the Bible is less than 400 years old.

When the New Testament was written, their letters were penned in Greek. Most of their words were inspired by the Spirit of Christ. The reason I say most, rather than all their words were inspired, is that we must remember even Paul made it clear that some of the things that he wrote were NOT given to him by the Spirit but were only HIS OWN OPINION.

1Co 7:6 BBE “But this I say as my opinion, and not as an order of the Lord.”

1Co 7:12 NASB “But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.”

1Co 7:25 NASB “Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.”

This point is not brought out to undermine any of the precious truths that these holy men had written, but only to remind us that “Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching.” This is not only to be applied to the inspired word contained in the Bible, but also to any Holy Spirit inspired writing or spoken word.

It is a must for us to know when a word is inspired by the Lord and when it is not, this is called “spiritual discernment” and can only develop and grow with practice. (Heb 5:14) 1Co 3:12-13 NASB “Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,  13  each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.” Simply put, if a man’s works which are always much more than just “words” are inspired by God it will always reveal Jesus Christ and nothing else this will be test enough to determine if indeed it was from God or not. Of course one has to understand from personal experience what the nature and character of Jesus is, to be able to determine if something is from Him or not.

We must learn to test the works and words of men professing to be of God, to see if they are inspired 1Jn 4:1 NASB “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” If this were no issue, why the admonition?

Next in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, we see that we are in fact to test those who call themselves apostles, or any one claiming to be Christian leaders and teachers to the point of proving their true authenticity in the Holy Spirit. 

Rev 2:2-3 NASB “I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;  3  you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.”

Jesus himself said that He would be speaking to “His sheep” and the “sheep will hear Him.”  Surely the Lords speaking to His children comes with His inspiration?

John 10:16 NASB “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.”

John 10:27 NASB “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;”

Notice here that Jesus says the when we receive the Holy Spirit of truth, that He will speak to us, telling us what is to come and glorifying Jesus as well. Additionally Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will take what is His, Jesus’, and show, tell, or reveal it to us. Again this has to be fully inspired! When does Jesus ever do anything without His mighty power?

John 16:13-15 NASB “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.  15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”

A look at 2 Corinthians 11 tells us that there are those who preach “another Jesus” bringing a “different spirit” while revealing a “different Gospel.” This is happening right now and always has been happening. 2Co 11:4 ISV “For if someone comes along and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or should you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you are all too willing to listen.” What would you call a group that only uses the KJV and believes that the group that uses the NIV is wrong? Neither are accurate translations, but whole congregations function this way. Are different translations different gospels?

Clearly “spiritual discernment” is necessary to determine what is of God and what is not since both are at work among us today. The overwhelming challenge I see today is that few actually have the maturity necessary to tell the difference between the “truth and the lie.”  Just as Paul says in 2 Cor. 11:4, when people come with a different Jesus you so quickly and willingly receive it, why? Unbelief and immaturity based upon a tragic agreement by modern religianity with the realm of darkness that the Living God, Jesus, does not speak to us any longer or that if He did it “His speaking” would not be on par with scripture. Why would one believe such an eternal lie? When did His communication with His children/bride become anything less than inspired? Where do the scriptures tell us that?

If someone speaks the oracles of God, they are inspired; we must embrace them with all our might until that truth becomes a living reality and is manifested as the Son of God in our life. Or on the other hand, if you find that it is neither profitable to the Spirit, soul, or body -- discard it altogether; and talk to that one about their error. However, we MUST NOT build a doctrine and a kingdom upon a word just because we respect a man and his ministry or it tickles our fancy. If we do, that kingdom will surely fall with the others to the Kingdom of our Lord and of His anointed ones (Rev 11:15).

Revised TA 04/11/2010

Posted: 04/19/2010 at 9:54pm | IP Logged

WOW !  Quite amazing here.....  could it be possible that everyone who has peeked at this post agrees with you on this "word of God" topic Tom?

Can I ask why there have been no comments on what would appear to be such a heretical position on the bible?  Is anyone willing to really risk looking at this besides Mr. Allen?

I am one who agrees with your post Tom.  I can only assume part two is not being posted because there is no discussion on part one?

I will take a stab at some more references from the bible that let us know that it is not "the truth", but only points us to Jesus.  It only contains recorded truths about "THE TRUTH".... Jesus Christ.

Joh 20:29-31 ESV Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (30) Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; (31) but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Posted: 04/21/2010 at 7:37pm | IP Logged

Oracles...  Living Words.....

záō, contracted zō, fut. zḗsō or zḗsomai (Mat_4:4), aor. ézēsa, pres. inf. zḗn. To live

WORDS : Strongs / Word Study

λόγιον

lógion; gen. logíou, neut. noun of lógios (G3052) an orator. Sentence, declaration, especially the utterance of the oracles of the gods

This only further substantiates the original post.  The words God "SPOKE" to Moses were "ALIVE" as they were uttered.  Moses wrote them down and they became "graphe" or written scriptures.

Posted: 04/21/2010 at 8:42pm | IP Logged

JS> God is eternal.  That means, outside of time.  He does not change, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  So His Word which proceeds from His Mouth is also eternal, and is settled forever in Heaven.  His Word proceeds from His Mouth and is eternal.

I agree completely... with this...

JS> So to imply that His Word changes from "alive" to "dead" when its written down implies time effects His Word,

Please only read and discern what was written here.  I do not see any implication that the Word of God (Jesus) was/is dead when it gets written down.

JS> and thus you are saying His Word is not eternal.  So I believe you are in error.

I am saying NO such thing.  Please be careful what you assert other people have said or written, especially when there is no evidence of what you are asserting.

What is the Word of God? 

     a. is it a book?

     b. is it Jesus?

Here is an interesting question to consider in light of your reference to the words Moses wrote down that were uttered by God.  Might need to be another topic thread.... we will see.

2Co 3:14-18 ESV But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. (15) Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. (16) But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. (17) Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (18) And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

When people read the words uttered by God and written by Moses in the reference you quoted earlier,  what does it do to them?

Posted: 04/21/2010 at 10:07pm | IP Logged

I agree with your last post Jeffrey.

Now, will you specifically answer any of the questions posed to you?

Posted: 04/22/2010 at 8:40am | IP Logged

Stacy,

I would encourage you to stand on Christ and not the bible.  The bible points towards Christ.  You do not have to have a bible to lead people to Christ.  It is the Holy Spirit that draws people unto himself.  I am in no way saying not to use the bible but instead to lean on Christ and allow him to guide you.  If you are following his lead it does not matter what translation you are using.  There are many place around the world where christians do not have a bible and people still get saved.  Blessings...

Posted: 04/22/2010 at 2:17pm | IP Logged

Jeffery,

You yourself believe and know that Jesus is the Word and I believe that it is Jesus "the Word" that pierces and divides not the written text.  Paul brought many into the Kingdom without the new testament where your scripture reference is from. Also, I would say that my comment about people being led to the Lord without a Bible is true.  There are many countires where the bible is banned and not available and people are still saved by the testimony of brothers and sisters in Christ. 

Posted: 04/22/2010 at 2:29pm | IP Logged

Dear Stacy, Don't let anyone steal your faith. People who argue that the Bible is full of errors do so because the Bible convicts them of their sins. They love their sin and don't want to give it up. They love darkness more than light.  They are like the devil in the Garden of Eden tempting Eve,  "Did God reeeeeaaaaaallllllllllly say????"

Adultery, pride, greed, lust, homosexuality, murder, fornication, hatred, pride, rebellion, unbelief, lying,  etc, etc, etc. are all still sins and they will always-always-always be sins.

You can trust the Bible and you can trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you in all truth.  The Holy Spirit will never contradict the Bible, nor will He denigrate the Bible. The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus.  God, God Almighty, El Shaddai,  the one who created the universe, all creation, all living things, the human body (study an anatomy book-it will flip you out), DNA, etc, etc, is smart enought to figure out how to write the Bible, use mere mortal men to do it and keep them from messing it up in the process! He is that smart! Yes, He is! You can trust every single, solitary word that is in the Bible. 

There are resources online that you can use to study the Bible in multiple versions and in the Greek and Hebrew if you want to - here's one. http://net.bible.org/verse.php You can pick a verse and look at multiple versions. I think you will find the meaning of the versions is the same even though they are not verbatim the same.

An example with Mark 12:26

NET © Now as for the dead being raised, 1  have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, 2  how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the 3  God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 4
 
NIV © Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
 
NASB © "But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’?
 
NLT © But now, as to whether the dead will be raised––haven’t you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
 
MSG © And regarding the dead, whether or not they are raised, don't you ever read the Bible? How God at the bush said to Moses, 'I am--not was--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
 
BBE © But as to the dead coming back to life; have you not seen in the book of Moses, about the burning thorn-tree, how God said to him, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
 
NRSV © And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
 
NKJV © "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage , how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
 
KJV And <1161>as touching <4012>the dead <3498>_,that<3754>they rise <1453> (5743)_:have ye <314> (0)not <3756>read <314> (5627)in <1722>the book <976>of Moses <3475>_,how <5613>in <1909>the bush <942>God <2316>spake <2036> (5627)unto him <846>_,saying <3004> (5723)_,I <1473>[am] the God <2316>of Abraham <11>_,and <2532>the God <2316>of Isaac <2464>_,and<2532>the God <2316>of Jacob<2384>_? GREEK peri <4012>PREPde <1161> CONJtwn <3588> T-GPMnekrwn <3498>A-GPMoti <3754> CONJegeirontai <1453> (5743) V-PPI-3Pouk <3756> PRT-Nanegnwte <314> (5627) V-2AAI-2Pen <1722> PREPth <3588> T-DSFbiblw <976> N-DSFmwusewv <3475> N-GSMepi <1909> PREPtou <3588> T-GSMbatou <942> N-GSMpwv<4459> ADV-Ieipen <2036> (5627)
V-2AAI-3Sautw <846> P-DSMo <3588> T-NSMyeov <2316> N-NSMlegwn <3004> (5723) V-PAP-NSMegw <1473> P-1NSo <3588> T-NSMyeov <2316> N-NSMabraam <11> N-PRIkai<2532> CONJyeov <2316> N-NSMisaak <2464> N-PRIkai <2532> CONJyeov <2316> N-NSMiakwb <2384> N-PRI NET © [draft] ITL Now
<1161>as for <4012>the dead <3498>being raised <1453>, have you <314>not <3756>read <314>in <1722>the book <976>of Moses <3475>, in the passage about the bush
<942>, how <4459>God <2316>said <2036>to him <846>, ‘I <1473>am the God <2316>of Abraham <11>, the God <2316>of Isaac<2464>, and <2532>the God <2316>of Jacob <2384>’?
NET © Notes 1 tn Grk “Now as for the dead that they are raised.”2 sn See Exod 3:6. Jesus used a common form of rabbinic citation here to refer to the passage in question.3 tn Grk “and the,” but καί (kai) has not been translated since English normally uses a coordinating conjunction only between the last two elements in a series of three or more.4 sn A quotation from Exod 3:6.

Posted: 04/22/2010 at 11:27pm | IP Logged

Something to ponder......

Jesus adressing the scripture adhering religious of His day...

Joh 5:37-47 ESV And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, (38) and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. (39) You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, (40) yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (41) I do not receive glory from people. (42) But I know that you do not have the love of God within you. (43) I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. (44) How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? (45) Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. (46) For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. (47) But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

A brief paraphrase:

Listen folks, Dad sent me here, all you have to do is look at the things I do to know that this is true.  The sad part is that you have never heard or seen anything Daddy has really done because.  In fact, you tirelessly search and read your written texts and think you have eternal life all figured out.  Nothing could be further from the truth because you do NOT even recognize who I am.  The written texts tell you that I am God, your Messiah.  But you stubbornly and ignorantly refuse to come to me. I am your eternal life fellas.  This is promised to all those who believe that I am come to save you from your sins.  I am not worried about what you think because I know that the love of Daddy is NOT in you.  You will believe all these posers who come to you, but you will not accept me and I come in the authority and representation of  Daddy’s name.  You guys get all jacked up about yourselves in your own self appreciate club, but you seriously miss the point that the only thing that matters if the approval of Daddy.....I assure you boys, Dad knows all about your arrogance and pride.. if you keep this up, you are in for a world of hurt... trust me.   Those texts that you are so fond of that Moses wrote, well I will tell you one more time, they speak of me and you don't get it.  You are blinded by them actually, and those very same texts you so dearly love, they will be all the accusation needed to condemn your existence to an eternity WITHOUT your Messiah.  This is so very sad boys.....  You do NOT even believe what is written in those so called sacred texts, and I know this to be true because you don't even believe the words I am speaking to you right now.....

OK, maybe not such a brief paraphrase...

The bible is the “written text” of our day.  The word used for scripture (written text) over and over in the bible is the greek word “graphe”.  The language used for Jesus described as the “WORD of God” is the greek word “logos”.  The actual eternal, spiritually spoken words of Jesus are translated from the greek word “rhema”.  All three of these are VERY different.

There is no way to equate the graphe to the logos, or the rhema.  A simple explation: The graphe (written texts) point to the logos (Jesus), who speaks (rhema) the eternal spiritual language of the Holy Spirit.  The bible has its place, but it is useless without the Holy Spirit.  Miss this point, and you miss out on Jesus…. Just like the religious did when Jesus actually walked among them.

Question:  If today’s bible is such a Holy Book and inspired exclusively by God,  Why are there umpteen sects and denominations who claim “Christianity” as their faith have such a different perspective on who Jesus really is and what He commanded us to actually do to make disciples?

Doesn’t it seem contrary to the nature of Christ to make a book that would confuse and divide so many people who claim to love him?.....  If He wants NONE to perish……. Really?

I ask you to listen to this thirteen part series about “the great ecclesiastical conspiracy”.  This series gives you a very good look at some of the evil work done in the translation of the written texts we call the bible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkO-0W0ij3E   (audio only)

http://www.awildernessvoice.com/GEC.html   (their home page)

Dear Stacy…. Have you been born again?  Are you filled with the Holy Spirit?  Are you born of the water and the Spirit?  This alone will be the foundation you need to truly start your discernment of the things Jesus commanded us to teach and make disciples.  The book is handy, and I personally love to read it and study it, but it is the Holy Spirit that teaches me…..   and you too…..  It is a promise to all….

1Jn 2:26-27 ESV  I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.  (27)  But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie--just as it has taught you, abide in him.

Keep searching…..  keep hungering for righteousness…. You WILL be filled…..  it too is a promise.

Posted: 04/23/2010 at 7:19pm | IP Logged

Hello Everyone,

I feel that I should weigh in on this thread. I have not read all of the posts on this thread but what I have read indicate there are a lot of good and valuable insights coming forth regarding the issue of Bible, Spirit and the living Word. Some of the statements may be troubling to some believers since not everyone is at the same place in their spiritual maturity and the current transition.

After having experienced 77 years of life 56 of those years seeking to serve our Lord and over the last 25 years intimately walking with the Lord in Spirit and word, I feel that I may have some clarity to add to this thread.

In the duration of this current transition from a religious type Christianity to truly knowing God and intimately relating to Him there is a maturing or growing up of the Body of Christ as a whole. As a less mature Body, religious form and formulas were vital in relating to God. As a maturing spiritual Body intimately relating to God through Christ Jesus by the Spirit, a new greater life is emerging in the broad base of the Body. An ekklesia type church is growing into place different from the past less mature church and the systems that were necessary to make it work.

It has only be a bit over a hundred years since the restoration of the fullness of the Spirit and the life produced by it began to open the way for the spirit to Spirit relationship to be restored to the Body on a broad scale. With this restoration the reality of not only speaking to God in prayer but actually receiving directly from Him by His Spirit began to grow into place. Prior to this the only communication available from God on a broad scale was the written Bible word. Therefore the Bible was to most Christians the only and the total word of God. Most did not believe that God was still speaking. This is still the belief of some. However, the reality of hearing God is gradually growing into reality for more and more believers.

The early decades of this restoration and transformation has been hindered by the noise of many spiritual babies of the restoration. They were babbling out their baby talk attempts to grow in hearing and speaking from God by the Spirit. This caused confusion and mistrust for some observers. In other words there has been lots of messed up and false hearing and speaking in the name of God. This was mostly caused by receiving gifting without the character of Christ maturity in their lives. Only a healed, pure heart can truly hear God clearly. Through the dark ages, after the first few centuries, people became so contaminated with religious error that like the first century religious Pharisees they could not hear God clearly. Even after the restoration many are yet unable to hear God clearly.

You can easily see from all of this that there is much opportunity for differences of beliefs and experiences among those transitioning, especially those that are at different places in their journey. There are also those who for whatever reasons refuse to abandon their strong religious convictions and be changed. Erroneous convictions were ingrained in the Body by strong teaching in the centuries before the wide spread restoration of the fullness of the work of the Holy Spirit began.

So, is the Bible the inerrant infallible and only Word of God as I and most Christians were taught in the past?

We can make a good argument that the original writing in the original language of the Bible is pure word from God and without error.

It is not true that all that God has spoken, is speaking and shall speak is written in the Bible.

It is without question that the Bible in its original writing is living word spoken by the Spirit of God to men of God. Before it was written it was spoken by the Holy Spirit to the men who wrote it or dictated it to a scribe.

Men have done a good job in retaining the written word for thousands of years. Translations from the original language have also been good, so much so that the potency is still in the basic translations such as the KJV, the NKJV, the NIV, the NAS and others. The translations from Greek and Hebrew to English are good but NOT perfect. HOWEVER, TO SAY THE BIBLE IS FULL OF ERRORS IS VERY WRONG.

Jesus is the Word from God. Jesus is God and is the express image of God to mankind. Jesus emanated from God and was sent expressed (spoken) from the Father. God is One God and is manifest in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not Father, Son and Holy Bible. Jesus is NOT the Bible. The Bible is NOT the fourth member of the God Head.

The written word becomes alive by the Holy Spirit revealing it and making it life to us. Christ Jesus the Son was with God from the beginning. God is Spirit. The son was Spirit in heaven with Spirit God before He was born of a woman as the incarnate Christ in an earthly body.

Jesus said that man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Mat 4:4:  But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

The Bible, as good and powerful as it is, IT IS NOT EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.

However, the Spirit God that authored the original Bible word WILL NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF IN ANY OTHER WORD SPOKEN BY THE SPIRIT.

There may very well be contradiction between what God says by His Spirit and what we may have come to believe through religious teaching that the Bible word means.

There will certainly be contradiction in what God is saying by His Spirit and what the translated Bible version in our language says, in the few places where grievous translation discrepancies do exist.

From the Greek to English translation many of the Greek words could have been translated into a number of different English words. The two languages are not parallel and words simply do not always translate clearly and directly. The translators had to prayerfully choose which way to go with the Greek words based on the context as they understood it and the revelation of God they had at the time. The time of English translations was near the end of the dark ages and restoration of much of the things of God had not yet taken place. The residue of darkness or lack of revelation in the translators caused a few grievous errors that can be seen by careful research of the Greek text in the light of current revelation.

There is a lot more detail about a few translation discrepancies and more in the free downloadable book available on this site “The Seventh Millennium”

Keep on pursuing love. It never fails
and His kingdom never ends.

Ron McGatlin
Coordinator OpenHeaven.com

archive.openheaven.com
basileia@earthlink.net  

Posted: 04/23/2010 at 9:13pm | IP Logged

Hi Jeffery,

I think Stephen Tomlins did a fine job of explaining your Acts 7 statement with clarity. I agree with his response.

I am not sure how one would go about a concept like this...on the net...via a media like this...without hurting some. I do not wish to hurt anyone. Having said that, looking for some grace and mercy, I will say this. We need to be open to revelation that is from Jesus Himself that is ment to change our minds. For example Jeffery wrote.

Jeffrey Stewart wrote: God is eternal.  That means, outside of time.  He does not change, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.  So His Word which proceeds from His Mouth is also eternal, and is settled forever in Heaven.  His Word proceeds from His Mouth and is eternal  So to imply that His Word changes from "alive" to "dead" when its written down implies time effects His Word, and thus you are saying His Word is not eternal.  So I believe you are in error.

Jeffery, in response to your statement above, how do you deal with what Paul wrote in 2Co 3:7-9 NASB "But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory."

Paul is telling us here that the words God gave Moses now especially in the light of the New Covenant, have become the ministry of death and condemnation to those under the veil. We have to look around, are those near to us religious? If they are, we are under the veil with them.

My question to you Jeffery is this. Are you ready to give up on religion, and allow the King of glory to reveal to you your original created purpose in this life? Men with a desire like yours need to see clearly what they have been created for. It was much more the bible study of a position in the religious machine, and connecting with the faithful on Sunday. We must be free from all that so we can be completely about living a life that does only one thing...reveals Jesus Christ. Religion can only cloud our way.

Tom...:)

Posted: 04/23/2010 at 9:30pm | IP Logged

Creative Miracles

"I am the source of all good things.  I wish to create good things in your life because of My intense love for you.  I create all things with My Word.  I establish and reveal My Ways in My Word.  If you look in Genesis, I created all things with My Word and declared the things I created to be "good".  All of creation is My Gift to you.  Again, you see in the Gospels where I used My Word, Jesus, to bring into existence the New Creation.  This was made legal on the Cross and made a reality by the Resurrection.  Again, My New Creation is a gift to you.  I created you in My Image.  It is My Will for you to walk like Me, to talk like Me, and to act like Me.  This is because I made you the visible Image of Me in the earthly realm.  And as I do all things with My Word, I want you to to do all things with My Word.  As I bring blessings into existence with My Word through the power of My Spirit, so I want you to do the same.  My Word in your lips contains My Creative Power, because I have placed all I AM in My Word.  My Word is established forever in Heaven, and I want you to speak My Word in the earthly realm to cause that which has been purchased for you in the Spirit by My Son's sacrifice on the Cross to become visible in your lives.  For as the day approaches for My Wedding, I wish to lavish gifts on My Bride.  For those of you who have had your health stolen, I wish to restore it with My Word. 

I would like to point you to the ministry of My Servant Smith Wigglesworth.  He was not only full of My Spirit but he was also full of My Word.  He would spend two to three hours a day reading aloud from a New Testament he carried with him where ever he went.  This was not a religious exercise.  I had put into him an intense hunger for My Spirit and My Word.  I did this because he asked me to.  He partook voraciously of My Living Water and My Living Word.  And I honored him by causing many creative miracles to occur in his ministry.  Missing limbs were restored.  Life was restored to those who had fallen asleep.  I am no respecter of persons.  IF you ask Me for this same hunger, I will give it to you.  And I will also honor YOUR ministry with the SAME type of creative miracles.  For there is nothing too hard for Me.  And My People are walking way below what I intended for My People to walk in.  This is the time when My People begin to walk in ALL I intended for My People to walk in, ALL that I purchased for them on the Cross.  So come into My Presence, live in My Presence as My Servant Smith Wigglesworth did, and ask for an INTENSE hunger for My Spirit and My Word, and walk in the bounty of blessings I have set aside for you and for your ministry before I created all things."

Posted: 04/23/2010 at 9:57pm | IP Logged

Hi Stacy,

You are not as bad off as you may think. First the fear you are dealing with is exactly what the enemy of God wants you to be caught up in. Please remember that anyone who is born again, born of the water and Spirit is a child of God, they are His born into a His kingdom, filled with all the power necessary to live and thrive. He perfectly loves you Stacy, this is not just a nice bunch of words, He died for you to prove His undying Love to you.

Fear comes along when we begin to question Jesus' love for us, and then enter into doubt and unbelief as to His desire and ability to perfect us unto glory. Remember, perfect love casts out all fear, it is His perfect love Stacy, not yours that casts out fear and doubt. Ours is to believe that Jesus can love us just exactly as He promised, He is always faithful.

On to your post concerning the many and veried translations of the bible.

Stacy McCarty wrote: Ugh. I've been struggling with this the past 3 days. How to be able to stand on the Bible when there are so many translations and then finding out that what one reads is not the real meaning due to it being lost, or made vague, when translated from the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic.   I'm from the camp that was taught that the KJV was THE translation of the Bible to stick with. Then I learned when older that it has many flaws due to translation errors. We live in a society that doesn't want to be corrected and calls sin a good thing. I've found repeatedly over the past 10 years that when I point out what the Bible says is a sin(s) or error I end up with Christians hopping all over me about how that's not what it means due to mixup in translation and they're just pulling the rug out from under me and the sin ends up being considered OK since the Bible is considered one big translated mess. My fear is that if I can't stand on the word of God as a solid thing when trying to correct error then I have nothing to stand on. And then I can't do my job, which is lead people back to the Godly path,and I will then have to be quiet. I'm really confused about this translation issue and I don't know what to do about it. Help?

I must remind you Stacy, Jesus is the word of God, He is never confusing, He is the solid rock, you CAN ALWAYS STAND UPON HIM! Never doubt Him.

Sin is sin, the bible is clear on that, don't ever listen to anyone who would tell you otherwise, in fact admonish them for their sin of disobedience, it may help them.

I have found that it really does not matter which version of the mistranslation I use. The Holy Spirit, aka the "Living Word" abides and is well capable of leading us through the bible and even more amazingly, without a bible at all.

This is the "substance" of your faith Stacy. Believing that you were created in Christ Jesus for the good works He has chosen for you, and then believeing that He enjoys walking you personally through your days patiently seeing to it that you are on the path He chose for you, and being right their with you for all of it, speaking to you in your spirit, you must learn to trust Him that way.

He is revealing to you His presence in all aspects of your life, look a bit closer with your faith, you will find Him right there. Remember what Paul said in 2 Cor 4:18...look at what is not seen, it is eternal.

Maybe it would help to look at it like this, Jesus is really only interested in the complete yielding of our will, outside of that we have nothing to offer Him. He has designed us in such a way, that He is working to convince us that He should be living His life through us. Everything else is perverse.

If you have any questions, or if I can try to assist you in any way, please let me know.

Tom...:)

P.S. Pt. 2 of "Is the Bible Really Gods Word" has been posted.

Posted: 04/23/2010 at 10:20pm | IP Logged

Hi Jeffery,

The bible is unique to be sure, however we still have to deal with the fact that by the definition the bible itself gives us of "The Word of God" it is Jesus simple enough. On the other hand nowhere do the scriptures tell us that Jesus is a written word.

Look at the word study from Mr. Tomlins, he layed it out well. Our current version of the scriptures in any version is dead without the Holy Spirit revealing its true meaning, just as Paul teaches. Ron M. says the same thing.

Look at the history of the scriptures themself Jeffery, it is horrible what man has done to this book. Wake up friend, the only word there ever was, is, or will be is the King Himself, alive and well bringing His will to pass as He desires, and He does not need anything to be written down. Be sure the only thing Jesus is writing these days is His testimony, and that on the hearts of His children who have always been the living testimony of the living word in action.

Jeffrey Stewart wrote: Tom, The reason I am so adamant about God's Word and His Word and Jesus being one and the same is because He took me to heaven in 1992 and showed me things about His Word that have been hidden until now.

Jeffery forgive me if this seems harsh, but do you ever actually engauge people? It seems tiresome at times with you. It often appears you just ignore others request for input and dialogue and move on to your agenda? Others first is a big part of whatever version of the mistranslation you worship.

What is your life like? The living word will never be caught napping between the leather covers of the recorded testimony of His deeds on this earth. The bible says go...do you go to church? Have you found your place in the family of God and are you living it out thought by thought?

I will check out your website Jeffery, I love fresh manna!

Tom...:)

Posted: 04/24/2010 at 1:37am | IP Logged

lógos; gen. lógou, masc. noun from légō (G3004), to speak intelligently. Intelligence, word as the expression of that intelligence, discourse, saying, thing.

(I) Word, both the act of speaking and the thing spoken.

(A) Word, as uttered by the living voice, a speaking, speech, utterance.

(B) An emphatic word, meaning a saying, declaration, sentiment uttered.

(C) Word or words, meaning talk, discourse, speech, the act of holding forth.

(D) Word, meaning talk, rumor, report

 (II) Reason, the reasoning faculty as that power of the soul which is the basis of speech, rationality.

(A) A reason, ground, cause

(B) Reason as demanded or assigned, meaning reckoning, account.

(III) The word Lógos in Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14; 1Jn_1:1; and Rev_9:13 stands for the preincarnate Christ, the spiritual, divine nature spoken of in the Jewish writings before and about the time of Christ, under various names, e.g., Son of Man (Dan_7:13).

Jeffery, I totally agree that the Word of God is Jesus, but you are going to have to dig deeper and strongly consider the questions and dare I say, admonishments from Tom.  The references used thus far by you to from the written texts do not even support themselves nor your specific position about "living words".

It is true we can pray and exclaim and petition the Lord Jesus from the letters written down in a historical text of the deeds and sayings and thoughts of God.  But I encourage you and all others to remember that it is not the fact that you know the words written down and can recite them as needed for a particular situation that determines any outcome.  For many will say they did great things in the name of Jesus only do be rejected by Him.  Yes... rejected for doing the things we saw written down in a book and then trying to live like it showed us to do them.

The Words of God and the Word of God are Spirit breathed and eternal. Aligning yourself with only that Spirit, (that may even look exactly like what was written down in a book (graphe), the letter killeth) makes it possible to bring glory to the Father.  How do you know you are bringing glory to the Father?..... because your prayers are answered. 

It looks like you have a long testimony of answered prayers.  This is quite edifying to the body of Christ.  Thank you !

Although you may have learned things from the bible (just like I have) it is only the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit that gave any life or power to what you and I have read.  I like the book, in fact there are parts I dearly love and cherish, actually most of it really.  It has helped me establish my faith without a doubt.  but it is only what was enacted by the Spirit because of my faith and hunger for more of Him that the words on paper meant anything.  Alone they do NOTHING!!!!  No bible ever saved anyone, it cannot.  Not bible ever healed anyone, it cannot.  No written text ever cast out any demons, it is not possible.  The book is powerless alone.  It requires the faith of those filled with the Spirit to actually bring it to life.

Just like your "My Face" encounter testifies of..... Jesus!

JS> Oh that My Bride would consume My Word, and allow Me to transform her.

Posted: 04/24/2010 at 8:21am | IP Logged

 ¹⁴How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?  ¹⁵And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! ¹⁶But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Posted: 04/24/2010 at 12:11pm | IP Logged

To Jeffery and Stephen,

Where is this going? It looks like Stephen is making some sense concerning the difference between the "Words of God" and the "Word of God." Jeffery it looks like you have the typical religious understanding of the bible as the "Word of God."

The bible clearly contains some of the "Words of God," but the Bible is not "THE" "Word of God" If it was, it would not be called "bible" it would be called "JESUS," the only name in which salvation from the wrath of God can be obtained, simple enough. I think Stephen has made that point clear.

Consider some quotes from Ron McGatlin, I urge you to re-read his message in context so I am not accused of any "Spin" as they say. Ron has a solid perspective from what I can see.

RM>"The Bible, as good and powerful as it is, IT IS NOT EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD."

RM> "However, the Spirit God that authored the original Bible word WILL NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF IN ANY OTHER WORD SPOKEN BY THE SPIRIT.

There may very well be contradiction between what God says by His Spirit and what we may have come to believe through religious teaching that the Bible word means.

There will certainly be contradiction in what God is saying by His Spirit and what the translated Bible version in our language says, in the few places where grievous translation discrepancies do exist."

That is the heartbeat of that 2 part series entitled "Is the Bible the Word of God?" Is there any of these few translation discrepancies taking place in the Godhead? Not a chance. The bible and the "Word of God" are different entities.

If any grevious translation discrepancies do exist, as Ron has stated, what happens to the one who follows their favorite collection of the "Words from God?" 

The written "Words of God" are not what builds faith, if it was, than all who have read the collection of sacred writings sould be...saved. How can error and confusion build faith in God?

Faith is only built, gained, grown when the living and active revelation of Jesus Christ Himself, is apprehended acted upon and then lived out as a lifestyle. This is what proves Him as faithful to His will in us. The knowledge of Christ alone with no corresponding action is a dead work, or as James said, a dead faith. 

Go ahead an attempt to explain how Christ is manifested as truth, through dead faith and in a collection of writings that include translational errors that DO NOT testify of Christ. If one is insistant upon doing that, one is experiencing the poisen of religianity.

To take it a step further, the one who attemptes to teach that there is error in the "Word of God"   (Jesus, not the "words of God") has a much deeper problem, they are revealing that they are not yet comprehending who Christ is. These are those who substitiute knowing about Him, (Bible, scripture) for the reality of His presence, which is found in the living Christ Jesus. Col 2:2-3 CEV “I do it to encourage them. Then as their hearts are joined together in love, they will be wonderfully blessed with complete understanding. And they will truly know Christ. Not only is he the key to God's mystery,  3  but all wisdom and knowledge are hidden away in him.” -- Christ NOT in a book, even if the book is the Bible.

Those who believe that having an understanding of the testimony of His works that have been recorded throughout history, is service or acceptable worship to the Living God, are the same ones who think Jesus is building the modern religious machine called "Church" a word not even found in the scriptures the religious call the "Word of God."

That word itself is one of the "grievous translation discrepancies" found in in the modern bible, and few question it. Whats worse, the "church" is really patterened after the ancient temple and Levitical Preisthood. The church shows up once a week, listens to the priest, prophet, and brings their tithes to the store house. That model cannot be found in the New Covenant, it is Old Covenant at best. So it must be the Law that rules there and why not, they are worshipping what is written. 

Does that sound like a discription of the book the religious call the bible?

Tom...:)

Posted: 04/24/2010 at 12:21pm | IP Logged

Arguing Theology is a dead work.  I won't participate in it. I assure you.  I apologize if it appears that way to you.

A further study of mis-translated "words" is in order however.  This is directly in line with the original topic of this thread.

 Please open the ears or them who need to hear dear Jesus....

The reference of Romans 10:17..... 

Rom 10:17 ESV So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Rom 10:17 KJV+  So then^G686 faith^G4102 cometh by^G1537 hearing,^G189 and^G1161 hearing^G189 by^G1223 the word^G4487 of God.^G2316

The greek word used to translate “word” in the above reference is RHEMA.  Here is the Strongs definition of that word.

G4487  ῥῆμα rhēma

hray'-mah

From G4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specifically); by implication a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: - + evil, + nothing, saying, word.

There is no reference to a written anything here at all…..

More from word study

G4487 ῥῆμα

rhḗma; gen. rhḗmatos, neut. noun from rhéō (G4483), to speak. That which is spoken, a statement, word.

(I) Particularly a word as uttered by a living voice. Pl. tá rhḗmata, words (Mat_12:36; Mat_26:75; Mar_9:32; Mar_14:72; Luk_1:38; Luk_2:17, Luk_2:19, Luk_2:50-51; Luk_7:1; Luk_9:45; Luk_18:34; Luk_20:26; Luk_24:8, Luk_24:11; Joh_8:20; Act_2:14; Act_6:11, Act_6:13; Act_10:44; Act_26:25; Act_11:16; Act_16:38; Act_28:25; Rom_10:18 quoted from Psa_19:5; 2Co_12:4; Heb_12:19; Sept.: Gen_27:34, Gen_27:42; Job_15:3; Job_31:40; Psa_5:2).

(II) Collectively, word, pl. words, meaning saying, speech, discourse.

(III) In the NT usage, often it has a particular meaning depending on the adjuncts or context:

(A) Charge, accusation (Mat_5:11; Mat_18:16; Mat_27:14; 2Co_13:1 in allusion to Deu_19:15 [cf. Num_14:36]).

(B) Prediction, prophecy, equivalent to rhḗmata proeirēména, sayings foretold (2Pe_3:2; Jud_1:17). Rhḗmata toú Theoú (G2316), sayings of God (Rev_17:17 [TR]).

(C) Promise from God (Luk_2:29; Heb_6:5; Sept.: 1Ki_8:20; 1Ki_12:15).

This is not a lesson or debate in theology.  It is a lesson in studying to show yourself approved.  There is NO reference to anything being written in Romans 10:17.  The Word of Christ (God) is spoken and live in Spirit.  The very book you esteem so highly contradicts your position on this. 

The Gospel is the good news about Jesus. 

What happens if you don’t have a book to follow along in?  Is Jesus now handcuffed from revealing Himself to others because someone lacks a book? 

Will eternity with Christ be lost to those who cannot read? 

This is not so in the Kingdom that I serve in…..  The Kingdom of God is NOT made unavailable to others because of some book that needs to be preached out of.  The reformation and counter reformation have destroyed way too many people. 

I have heard I said that the best thing that happened to Christianity because of the reformation and Martin Luther’s press is that everyone got to read the bible.  And the worst thing that happened to Christianity because of the reformation and Martin Luther’s printing press is that everyone got to read the bible.  Such a wonderful “book” only seems to divide people and separate them from who the Truth really is… along the lines with “ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth”. In other words bad doctrine….  Based on the texts written in a book….. ughh…

As far as Mr Wigglesworth goes… We would all do better to stand on the example of Jesus…..

Jeffrey, I am also not sure what question you actually tried to answer or respond to….. I would like to think that we can agree on Christ and let Him work things out.  It is He who would like to see all things reconciled unto Himself.  Not just the lost, but ultimately all things.  That includes differing opinions about Who He is and is not among the believers.   Just a brief study of the written text and letters from Paul and others illustrates that differing opinions have to be judged and compared to the Christ and Christ alone.  Everything else is folly.

Judgment starts in the house of God…  today….

Respectfully….

Posted: 04/24/2010 at 5:41pm | IP Logged

I am concerned for you guys. You are just not getting it. ONLY BY THE SPIRIT CAN YOU KNOW WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS.

YOU CAN PROVE OR DISPROVE ONE GREEK WORD AGAINS ONE DICTIONARY OR ANOTHER AND YOU WILL NEVER KNOW THE WORD FROM GOD WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN SPEAKING TO YOU EXPLAINING THE WORDS THAT HE AUTHORED.

HOLY SPIRIT DISCERNMENT AND INPUT WILL IN LOVE GIVE YOU THE LIVING WORD FROM THE WRITTEN WORD OR DIRECTLY FROM HEAVEN. THE HOLY SPIRIT ALWAYS SPEAKS THE TRUTH OF JESUS.

So, is the Bible the inerrant infallible and only Word of God as I and most Christians were taught in the past?

We can make a good argument that the original writing in the original language of the Bible is pure word from God and without error.

It is not true that all that God has spoken, is speaking and shall speak is written in the Bible.

It is without question that the Bible in its original writing is living word spoken by the Spirit of God to men of God. Before it was written it was spoken by the Holy Spirit to the men who wrote it or dictated it to a scribe.

Men have done a good job in retaining the written word for thousands of years. Translations from the original language have also been good, so much so that the potency is still in the basic translations such as the KJV, the NKJV, the NIV, the NAS and others. The translations from Greek and Hebrew to English are good but NOT perfect. HOWEVER, TO SAY THE BIBLE IS FULL OF ERRORS IS VERY WRONG.

THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN REVEAL THE TRUTH OF WHAT IS BEING SAID.

Jesus is the Word from God. Jesus is God and is the express image of God to mankind. Jesus emanated from God and was sent expressed (spoken) from the Father. God is One God and is manifest in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Not Father, Son and Holy Bible. Jesus is NOT the Bible. The Bible is NOT the fourth member of the God Head.

The written word becomes alive by the Holy Spirit revealing it and making it life to us. Christ Jesus the Son was with God from the beginning. God is Spirit. The son was Spirit in heaven with Spirit God before He was born of a woman as the incarnate Christ in an earthly body.

Jesus said that man shall live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Mat 4:4:  But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

The Bible, as good and powerful as it is, IT IS NOT EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.

However, the Spirit God that authored the original Bible word WILL NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF IN ANY OTHER WORD SPOKEN BY THE SPIRIT.

There may very well be contradiction between what God says by His Spirit and what we may have come to believe through religious teaching that the Bible word means.

There will certainly be contradiction in what God is saying by His Spirit and what the translated Bible version in our language says, in the few places where grievous translation discrepancies do exist.

From the Greek to English translation many of the Greek words could have been translated into a number of different English words. The two languages are not parallel and words simply do not always translate clearly and directly. The translators had to prayerfully choose which way to go with the Greek words based on the context as they understood it and the revelation of God they had at the time. The time of English translations was near the end of the dark ages and restoration of much of the things of God had not yet taken place. The residue of darkness or lack of revelation in the translators caused a few grievous errors that can be seen by careful research of the Greek text in the light of current revelation.

There is a lot more detail in the free downloadable book available on this site “The Seventh Millennium”

Keep on pursuing love. It never fails
and His kingdom never ends.

Ron McGatlin
Coordinator OpenHeaven.com

archive.openheaven.com
basileia@earthlink.net  

Posted: 04/30/2010 at 5:54pm | IP Logged

Jeffrey, I think you may almost be there. Think about this, if the written word is Jesus and Jesus is the written word (Bible) then we should all worship the  Bible.

So, Jeffrey, Is God the Father, Son and Holy Bible  or  Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Holy Bible?

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Bible is not God and not equal to Jesus the Son.

I don't believe that anyone here is saying that the Bible, the written word from God, is not vitally important and useful. I believe everyone here is very thankful for the written word that is of such great value. Please note that most everyone here is using Bible in their writings.

The Spirit of God brings life from the written word. Without the Spirit it is empty of life. Consider the many examples of deceived men who have established deadly cults who read, taught and preached from the Bible profusely.

I personally have known people who read the Bible over and over. They spent hours in the written word and yet they only became more deceived and meaner. What spirit or spirits were helping them with their Bible reading and meditations? A religious spirit opens the door to other demons and increasing deception. The point here is that the Spirit brings life from the written word as He speaks truth to us within. The Bible is not God. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The devil and demons use the written word to produce deception and debate against the truth of God. And the Holy Spirit uses the written word to establish Jesus the truth and the life.

We do not worship the book. We worship God who wrote the book.

Much love and respect,

Ron

Posted: 04/30/2010 at 8:16pm | IP Logged

Kriston,

Your post "Logos=The Word" was simple and refreshing, I agree completely.

The soulish nature of man has bought the lie that says "knowledge is king" and there are some real problems with this as I see it. First a polished academic knowledge of the scriptures for the sake of biblical knowledge is a dead work. While one with great academic knowledge may be hired to fill a spiritual position, this type of knowledge does not qualify anyone "spiritually."

Secondly, one can obtain knowledge from a study of the bible that is not Holy Spirit breathed! One look at 600+ denominations in this country alone proves that. For one to think that they will be permitted to move on to deeper levels of spiritual maturity while only possessing a scriptural knowledge of the kingdom of God is futile. The Lord will not allow it.

Thirdly, whenever man thinks he can do anything pleasing to the Lord Jesus from carnal soulish desires, he is deceived, no matter how hard he tries, or how much he learns. Of course Jesus has mercy for us when we are learning however that is not what I am talking about here. I am referring to these folks who debate their brand of theology on forums like this but never actually do anything spiritually.

Things like build and establish ecclesias, make disciple's that actually grow in spiritual maturity and go on to build more themselves, move in the "power" of the Holy Spirit that has been available to the ecclesia since the birth of the ecclesia on Pentecost so many years ago.

No they simply argue their favorite text from their favorite misinterpretation of the scriptures, never really reading and understanding what others post especially if they don't agree with another person. Then they pat themselves on the back thinking that they did something spiritual when all along is was the spirit of religion deceiving them once again. Humility is no longer a Christian virtue to these types.

Kriston, The following is a quote from your earlier post I find it absolutely amazing!!!

KC> "The Lord Himself speaks WITHIN our inner most being. We cannot ignore Him who speaks from heaven (where we now dwell always seated with Him). We are His dwelling place, we hear Him speak from this dwelling and obey the "Living Word", and become the "Living Word" ourselves as we are in union with the Lord in heart, purpose, and deed. Our own words becoming a Sword that separates."

I think the words "We cannot ignore Him who speaks from heaven (where we now dwell always seated with Him)" are so misunderstood, not really believed by the multitudes who make up the religious machine, and in most cases just plain foreign to the ranks of nominal Christianity, well said!

KC> "We are His dwelling place, we hear Him speak from this dwelling and obey the "Living Word"

I love this, to me it is truly rare to come across one who believes in this way Kriston. I believe that you are absolutley right here, I hope others will give this sentance a second glance! I hope they will ask Jesus to reveal Himself to them in this statement, if they do, He will and they will experience Jesus in a whole new way!!!

The rest of that statement is equally powerful and for the most part invisible to the "Bible Worshiper's" who think they know Christ. The concept of His children becoming "the living word" is something you should write more about here in this forum. I can already see the "sola scriptura" Pharisee calling you a heretic and mounting his written assult! Why not...it threatens their knowledge base and their kingdom...:)

Most are still waiting for a "mansion" in the hereafter Kriston, and they cannot see the humble yet glorious abode available to them right now! Jesus did say that we can go to where He is, didn't he? He meant now, by faith didn't he? We live in the already.....but not yet...:)

I look forward to hearing more if you so desire Kriston.

Tom...:)

Posted: 04/30/2010 at 8:46pm | IP Logged

Nothing He showed me had anything to do with the mental realm.  It was all about His Words living in our heart.  How does God impart Himself to us?  We know He does so by His Spirit.  But it also appears He can do it through His Word, the Bible, as well.  It says our faith is a gift.  How do we grow in faith?  By "hearing" His Word.  So He imparts faith to us with his word.  The goal is to fully restore His Image to us so people can see Jesus in our lives.  We are also changed by resting in His Presence and worshiping Him.  Jesus is the full revelation of who He is.  He wants us to also be revelations of who He is.  So I agree with Ron - I do not in any way advocate worshiping the Bible.  My point is that He can impart Himself into our spirits by using both His Spirit and using His words.  Smith Wigglesworth spent hours fellowshipping with God, praying in the spirit, AND reading the bible out loud - and raised eight people from the dead. He was a living illustration of the point I am trying to make. 

Now that being said, there are people who have "memorized" hundreds of verses and are "dead as a doornail"   There were many pharisees who probably had the Books of Moses memorized and missed Jesus completely.  There are also those like that today.  I think there are many Christians who live in the mental realm and their spirits are starving and weak, and are ineffective in the Kingdom of God.  I hope my message results in people having their spirits strengthened, their walk with the Lord blessed, so that they are transformed into mighty representatives of His Kingdom on earth.

There is an interesting verse in John 15 - John 15:3  Jesus says - "You are already clean (pruned) because of the Word (ton logon) not "the words"  I have spoken to you"  He uses the same phrase "The Word" singular about the words He spoke to the disciples that John used when referring to Jesus as the Word (o logos) in John 1:1.  So there is an equivalence established in that verse.  This is spoken during his parable of the vine.  The spoken word has the power to prune us to make us more fruitful - he uses the greek word for prune in association with hearing his words.  What does it mean for us to be fruitful? For Jesus to become more and more visible in our lives.  Jesus is the Word made flesh (visible).  We are also to become the Word made visible.  As He is, so are we to be in this world.  So Jesus is showing us that hearing his words makes this come to pass.

I hope this better illustrates my point.  I in no way advocate worshiping the Bible.  God wants us to make Him visible to the world, and hearing his words is one way He brings that to pass.